\n<\/p>\n
Subscribe here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts<\/em><\/p>\n The guest on this episode of Radio Atlantic<\/em> would not describe herself as \u201cfun at parties,\u201d but at least she knows it. \u201cI\u2019ve never really liked my personality,\u201d wrote Olga Khazan in 2022, \u201cand other people don\u2019t like it either.\u201d A few years ago, Khazan set out to change her personality, a task many people think is impossible. As Khazan explains, in the late 1800s, William James, who is considered the father of modern psychology, developed a theory that a person\u2019s personality is set in plaster around age 30. James himself was depressive and neurotic, and he suffered from what he called \u201csoul-sickness.\u201d Thankfully, he was also incorrect. Later research showed that people can, in fact, shift even core parts of their personality, if they work at it systematically.<\/p>\n After consulting with the experts on personality plasticity and then setting a deadline, Khazan put herself through an intense experiment intended to make herself more likeable, to herself and others. Her evaluations were not soft and subjective but numerical; Khazan tested and scored herself on a range of key personality traits at the beginning and end of the experiment. In this episode, Khazan and I talk about two of those traits: extroversion and neuroticism. Khazan shares how for her book Me, But Better,<\/em> she dragged herself to improv classes and meditation lessons, and how having a baby threw a kink in her experiment.<\/p>\n The following is a transcript of the episode:<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n Hanna Rosin: <\/strong>There is one thing I really don\u2019t like about myself. I mean, there are several, but I\u2019m only going to tell you about this one right now. It can be the most beautiful day\u2014like springtime, cherry blossoms every direction you look\u2014and immediately, instinctively, my mind will scan for the one thing wrong. Like, Gross! There\u2019s pollen all over that car<\/em>.<\/p>\n I have definitely tried over the years to do this<\/em> or that<\/em> to counteract it, like cultivate a more positive mindset or start my day by saying three things I\u2019m grateful for. But I think there\u2019s just a part of me that thinks, Well, that\u2019s just how Hanna is<\/em>, like there\u2019s some core of Hanna Rosin, whether it\u2019s genetic or epigenetic or learned, that will always scan for the negative.<\/p>\n I\u2019m Hanna Rosin. This is Radio Atlantic<\/em>, and today we\u2019re talking about personality\u2014what it is and whether it\u2019s something you can actually change.<\/p>\n Olga Khazan:<\/strong> So, many decades ago, William James did come up with this theory that personality is sort of set like plaster at age 30, and it never softens again after age 30.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>\u200aThat\u2019s staff writer Olga Khazan. And the William James she\u2019s talking about is considered the father of American psychology. But his view of personality doesn\u2019t hold up to modern scrutiny.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> There wasn\u2019t a whole lot of research on personality or psychology. It just wasn\u2019t really a developed science. So when researchers started doing more modern studies about this, what they found, after following the same group of people for decades and decades, is that most people actually do change, and if they do stuff to try to change, they kind of change even faster.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Like me, Olga had things about her personality that she wished she could change. And when she learned that it\u2019s not so set in stone, she thought she\u2019d give it a try. She made it a monthslong project, an experiment. And she wrote about it in a new book called Me, But Better<\/em>.<\/p>\n [Music<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> So I love this idea. I find it very inspiring, as I\u2019m sure a lot of people do. Why did you start it? Like, obviously, there were things about yourself that you didn\u2019t like\u2014which there are things about all of us that we don\u2019t like, but what was it in your case?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Yeah, so on top of not liking certain things about myself, something that I noticed is that I just wasn\u2019t very happy, and I wasn\u2019t enjoying my life to the extent that I thought that I could.<\/p>\n So what started this was I had just a really rough day. I was in Miami in December, so definitely nothing to complain about environment-wise. I had to go get professional photos taken for our job, and I had to get a haircut before the photos were taken. And so I go; I book a hair appointment. This haircut is terrible. It\u2019s probably one of the worst haircuts I\u2019ve ever gotten in my life.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Details. Details. Was it a bang problem?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t a bang problem. Okay, I try to emphasize every time I get my hair cut that my hair does not take layers well. And they always do layers, despite what I explicitly said. And maybe I need to just be more straightforward about it. But anyway\u2014so there was like a mushrooming effect because of the attempt at layers.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> (Laughs<\/em>.) I\u2019m sorry. I\u2019m sorry, yeah.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> (Laughs<\/em>.) Anyway, so I\u2019m leaving the hairstylist\u2019s. I\u2019m like, Oh my God. I look terrible.<\/em> I had to go directly to the photo session, where I got professional photos taken that looked really bad, in my opinion, and then I had to, right away, drive on to the grocery store to get a bunch of groceries for dinner that night.<\/p>\n And as I was driving, I went the wrong way and got stuck on this island that cruise ships launch from. Then, once I recovered from that, I got to the grocery store, and as I was leaving, my shopping cart locked. And I had to drag the shopping cart across the parking lot to my car. And while this all was happening, my boss was Slacking me edits on a story. So I do these edits sitting in this hot car. I drive on, I get back to the Airbnb, and I just freak out.<\/p>\n Like, I honestly just had a meltdown\u2014not a panic attack, but crying, chugging wine, just screaming, like, I hate everyone. <\/em>And I settled down, eventually, and I was sort of like, Why do I react so badly to things that are kind of minor?<\/em> Honestly, just even recounting that day as a new parent, I\u2019m kind of like, Eh, so. <\/em>That\u2019s bad, but that\u2019s not that bad.<\/p>\n And I kind of realized that it was my personality that was making days like that worse than they had to be, that was undermining my happiness in those moments.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Okay, I just wanna question that for one second: First of all, I\u2019m sorry you had that day. It sucks, and I understand you just want to be frustrated. Like, you don\u2019t wanna be screaming and crying. You don\u2019t want to have a breakdown. You just wanna be casually frustrated. I think a lot of people, when they are sad or they feel unhappy, the traditional route is: See a shrink. Get on meds. You know\u2014whatever\u2014journal.<\/p>\n I don\u2019t think that I would have thought, Okay, it\u2019s my actual personality<\/em>. Like, to look at yourself, break your personality down, I mean, it\u2019s interesting. It was an interesting response you had, and I\u2019m wondering how you even knew in that moment to look at yourself and think, Oh, it\u2019s my personality<\/em>.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Yeah, so, actually, seeing a shrink and taking medication do change your personality, also.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Interesting!<\/p>\n Khazan: <\/strong>And that is to say that personality change is kind of the root of a lot of different types of personal growth and self-improvement. So what I was kind of describing just now is a high level of neuroticism, which I did have.<\/p>\n And so bringing that down is personality change. And one way to do that is through therapy and medications. But I think kind of beyond just neuroticism, I was also just kind of unhappy with other parts of my life. Like, I honestly just didn\u2019t socialize much. I kind of reflexively didn\u2019t socialize.<\/p>\n I didn\u2019t have a lot of friends, which to me was a different thing than neuroticism. And then I kind of just was really snippy with my boyfriend at the time\u2014my husband now\u2014and honestly, would get in a lot of fights with my friends, which is, like, this other trait called \u201cagreeableness.\u201d<\/p>\n So I don\u2019t know. It felt more, like, all-encompassing than just the I need to handle my stress better<\/em>.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Right. Okay. So you\u2019ve been mentioning some of the main traits that you outline in your book. Can you just lay out the different components so we can follow you through this experiment?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> So there\u2019s five traits that make up personality, and we all have these five traits inside of us. And they can be remembered with the acronym OCEAN<\/em>.<\/p>\n So it\u2019s o<\/em> for \u201copenness to experiences,\u201d which is like creativity and imaginativeness; c<\/em> for \u201cconscientiousness,\u201d which is like being on time, being super organized, being really diligent; e<\/em> for \u201cextroversion,\u201d so being sociable, cheerful, active; c<\/em> for \u201cagreeableness,\u201d which is being warm and empathetic and trusting; and n<\/em> for \u201cneuroticism,\u201d which is being neurotic, being anxious and depressed.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Okay. So that\u2019s how you started to break your own problems down. Like, there\u2019s this bucket, that bucket, that bucket. We won\u2019t do the whole OCEAN of personality, but I really want to talk about a few that interest me the most. Maybe we\u2019ll start with extroversion, because being outgoing is a common goal.<\/p>\n Lots of people say, Oh, I want to have more friends<\/em>, particularly post-pandemic. How extroverted were you at the start of this process?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Let me look up my exact score.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Oh, there were scores?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Yes!<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Okay, so you actually get a number.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Yeah, when you take the personality test I was taking, you do get a number.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> That\u2019s a little brutal.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Yeah. Oh, okay\u2014I scored in the 23rd percentile, which is very low, especially when it came to being friendly or cheerful.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Uh-huh. Interesting. Okay. (Laughs<\/em>.) When you first got that number, how did that feel?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> I was like, That checks out<\/em>.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> (Laughs<\/em>.) Uh-huh. You weren\u2019t surprised. Okay. So how did you go about this? Like, that\u2019s the kind of thing where someone would say, Okay, well, I\u2019m just not that extroverted<\/em>, and one road would be acceptance: I\u2019m just not that extroverted. I\u2019m going to stay home and watch TV a lot. <\/em><\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Yeah, and I did that road for a long time. So one kind of interesting twist here is that when psychologists take a bunch of introverts and they tell them, Go out and act like extroverts for a few minutes. Go socialize. Go hang out. <\/em>And then they come back and they\u2019re like, How do you feel?<\/em> They actually say they feel happier. And they also say they feel more like themselves.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Something about your saying that makes me nervous. I think it\u2019s just because of the Susan Cain book Quiet<\/em>, where we\u2019ve come to appreciate the power of introverts, you know? What do you say about that?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> So yeah, I really, really liked the book Quiet<\/em>, and I really like Susan Cain personally. I just think that there are benefits for introverts to occasionally act like extroverts. I think it\u2019s okay to still identify as an introvert and to appreciate all of the perks that come with that, but to also occasionally be able to at least try on this more outgoing personality trait.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> So when you set out to try and change this part of yourself, you know, raise your score\u2014we\u2019ll just put it that way, concretely\u2014were you saying to yourself, I want to change Olga and make Olga not an introvert<\/em>? Or, I want to try on extraversion sometimes, like a costume<\/em>? Or, I want to change my score<\/em>? Like, what was your goal?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> My goal was to change my score, so to be more extroverted. I didn\u2019t think it would work well enough to make me an extrovert. In the end, I think my latest test that I took did put me technically in the extrovert category. But I didn\u2019t think that it would work that well.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Okay. So how did you do it?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> I signed up for a bunch of activities and went to them. I signed up for improv comedy, a sailing club, a bunch of meetups. And I threw a party at my house for the first time.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Wow. And all the while, just so people understand what this kind of experiment is like, in case they want to try it, are you uncomfortable? Like, surely, you\u2019re going against your, what you initially called, natural inclinations.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> So I ended up doing improv for about eight months or so. And probably for the first six months, every time I went, I felt this overwhelming sense of dread. Like, you almost wish that you could get in a car accident on the way there so that you wouldn\u2019t have to go.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> That is extreme. I totally sympathize. I understand. Yeah.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Like, is there any way to get out of this? Any way? Like, Please, God, don\u2019t make me go<\/em>. Like, I have extreme stage fright. And so you get there, and you\u2019re all sitting in a circle, and then at some point you get up, and you just start doing improv with the other people who are there.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>And the reason it helps you become extroverted is because it\u2019s relational. Like, you have to be deeply attuned to this total stranger. You have to be on the stage. You have to perform. Like, it just forces you into actions that are extroverted.<\/p>\n Khazan: <\/strong>Oh, yes, and it makes you become way more comfortable with chaos because everyday conversation is chaotic, but improv is even more chaotic than that.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Right. And then, so let\u2019s say the 20th time you\u2019re going to improv class, does the initial dread fade, or it\u2019s always that cycle?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> I think, over time, it did fade, but even before it completely went away naturally, I would start to feel it, and I would kind of tell myself, like, No, you\u2019re gonna be fine. It\u2019s just improv. It\u2019s okay\u2014you\u2019re gonna feel good after<\/em>. You know, it\u2019s very similar to how I talk to my son now. It\u2019s like, No, you like this formula. This is the good kind<\/em>. (Laughs<\/em>.)<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> That\u2019s so funny. So this is tricky to understand. So by the end, you\u2019re doing it with a little bit less dread. You\u2019re still talking yourself into it. You\u2019re able<\/em> to do it, so you\u2019re not avoiding it; you\u2019re doing it. You\u2019re, at times, enjoying it, but it\u2019s still<\/em> not your natural inclination.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> So I would say it\u2019s not to do improv, but it\u2019s to connect with other people when I\u2019m feeling down. Like, if I\u2019m feeling isolated and withdrawn, I don\u2019t feel like the solution is just to spend more time by myself. I feel like it\u2019s to connect with others and sort of get out of my head a little.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> But that actually seems revolutionary. Like, if you think of one of our largest problems now, which is lack of connection, the idea that you can actually work at it, you know, approach it like a project and change it slowly, such that what you got\u2014okay, maybe you\u2019re not going to be on SNL<\/em>, so that\u2019s not your destiny\u2014but what does change is that you don\u2019t go deeper into yourself when you are feeling whatever you\u2019re feeling. Like, you seek some kind of connection. And research does show that that\u2019s healthy.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Yeah, and that\u2019s kind of the science behind why extroverts tend to show up as happier. They kind of just spend a lot of time around other people, and other people tend to make us happy, even though we can all think of times when other people have not made us happy.<\/p>\n But, you know, I\u2019m really glad I did that before having a baby, because I think that my approach to new motherhood would have been totally different otherwise and much more isolating if I hadn\u2019t done this experiment to see, Okay, actually, being around others and connecting socially, and even in a way that\u2019s silly and doesn\u2019t totally make sense is, like, still a good thing<\/em>.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s amazing. What\u2019s your extroversion score now?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Right now, my extroversion\u2014it says it\u2019s very high.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Very high. So it went from very low to very high.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Yes, it\u2019s not in the top 10 percent. I would say it\u2019s probably, like\u2014I don\u2019t know\u201460th percentile now.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> I know, but you\u2019re getting all ambitious now. Like, you want to be in the top ten percent.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t get into the Harvard of extroversion. (Laughs<\/em>.)<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Exactly. (Laughs<\/em>.)<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> But yeah.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> That\u2019s amazing. Okay. Very, very impressed. And I feel like people should try it.<\/p>\n [Music<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>So that was extroversion\u2014the e<\/em> in OCEAN<\/em>. After the break, Olga takes us through another section of her book: the n<\/em>\u2014the negative, nervous, capital-n<\/em> \u201cNeurotics.\u201d<\/p>\n [Break<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Okay. Let\u2019s move on to the second trait that I want to talk about, which is neuroticism, the n<\/em> of OCEAN<\/em>. That is one that I think many people would like to change about themselves, myself included. What did your starting point there look like?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> I think I scored higher than, like, literally everyone else on earth.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> (Laughs<\/em>.)<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Oh, I was in the 94th percentile.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> So you did get into the Harvard of neuroticism.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I\u2019m graduating.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Excellent. And we\u2019re laughing, but the feeling\u2014I mean, everyone\u2019s version of neurotic is different, but can you talk a little bit about your own version? Like, what is it that bothered you about your neuroticism?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> So I was basically always anxious. Like, there just wasn\u2019t a time when I wasn\u2019t anxious. I was constantly thinking about stuff in the future that could go wrong, or stuff in the past that did go wrong, and, like, Why did I allow it to go wrong?<\/em> When good things would happen, there was no living in the moment or appreciating the good thing.<\/p>\n It was, like, onto the next thing that could go wrong. Or like, Oh, this sunset is great, but the one yesterday was better<\/em>. You know, like on vacation, we would get to some beautiful attraction or landmark of some kind, and I\u2019d be like, Okay, what\u2019s next?<\/em><\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> That kind of thing. Yeah.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> So you started out with Harvard-level, high-baseline neuroticism. This one is hard to face, I will say, so what was your process of trying to change it?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> So I followed this one study that\u2019s been done on personality change, but a lot of those suggestions were, like, a lot of gratitude journaling\u2014and I did do that\u2014but a lot of it was also meditation.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Ugh.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> \u2014which, I know.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Is there anything else?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> I know. I was, like, Seriously?<\/em> I was diving so deep into the psychology. Is there something where I can, like, walk backwards for a mile and be cured?<\/em><\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>You know how there are headlines sometimes that are like: \u201cThis is the One Thing You Need to Do.\u201d It\u2019s always meditation. So I\u2019m like, You\u2019re not surprising me in this headline<\/em>.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Yes, yes. Yeah, it\u2019s always meditation. It was indeed meditation. So it was a meditation class that I took. It was, like, kind of like Buddhism for Dummies<\/em>\u2014like, during the day, we would all gather and they would do this PowerPoint with kind of very basic Buddhist ideas.<\/p>\n And then, we had to meditate for 45 minutes a day.<\/p>\n [Music<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> As beginners?<\/p>\n Khazan: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>That\u2019s an intimidating amount of time.<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> It was really, really, really hard. I honestly don\u2019t think I could do it with a kid now. I don\u2019t really have 45 minutes anymore. But I think if people are trying this at home, I think they should start with way less, because it can feel so daunting that you\u2019re like, Why even bother?<\/em> You know? And there\u2019s a lot of meditations out there that I also found effective that are much shorter, like 10 or 15 minutes.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> So you, starting out as the person with high neuroticism, face meditation as a person who sees meditation all over the culture, so there\u2019s already a barrier to entry. So how do you slide into that one? Because I actually understand the benefits of meditation; I just also understand the cultural ubiquity of meditation and, thus, the resistance to it, you know? So how do you sneak your way in so that it\u2019s helpful?<\/p>\n Khazan:<\/strong> Yeah, so I basically was, like, dragged kicking and screaming. And unlike with improv, I didn\u2019t enjoy it at any point. So we would have these phone calls with our meditation teacher to see how things were going, and basically all my phone calls were all about how much I hated meditation.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Which is maybe neurotic, like\u2014<\/p>\n