\n<\/p>\n
Holly Newson 00:00 <\/p>\n
Welcome to Working Scientist, a Nature Careers podcast. I\u2019m Holly Newson, and in this series, you \u2019ll hear from authors who can help you in your career. <\/p>\n
In this episode, I\u2019m joined by Susie Ashfield, a speech and communication coach, and the author of Just F**king Say It, a book that helps you use your voice in the best possible way, whether that be for public speaking, a networking event, or asking for a pay rise. <\/p>\n
So Susie, thank you for joining me. (Thank you for having me). <\/p>\n
So, to kick off with…<\/p>\n
This book, you have almost a mantra right at the start. To care less. <\/p>\n
And when it comes to communication, and, you know, interacting with other people, I feel like that\u2019s against most of our instincts. <\/p>\n
We all care so much. <\/p>\n
So why is that your approach? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 00:46 <\/p>\n
It\u2019s exactly because of that. We are all desperately, desperately concerned about what other people think of us. <\/p>\n
Now, ultimately, that\u2019s a really good thing. We should (a little bit) care about how other people perceive us. <\/p>\n
But when we get obsessed, when we really overthink how we walk into a room, what we\u2019re saying, how we say it, we get in our own heads. <\/p>\n
And we put levels of pressure on ourselves when we\u2019re communicating that just shouldn\u2019t be there. <\/p>\n
And the output of that is that we overthink it. And we deliver something that\u2019s garbled. <\/p>\n
All because we are trying to meet this super high expectation that we\u2019ve set in our own heads. And it just doesn\u2019t really exist. <\/p>\n
So that\u2019s why the ethos is to just care less. <\/p>\n
Let it go. See what happens. Enjoy it. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 01:35 <\/p>\n
And easy to say, probably hard to do. (Absolutely). <\/p>\n
What are the foundations that you have to have in order to be able to get to that point where you care less? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 01:45 <\/p>\n
You have to know you know your stuff. <\/p>\n
The example I can give you of that is: if you\u2019ve ever been in that horrendous situation where people go, \u2018Hello. We \u2019re sat around a room. Let\u2019s go around the room and introduce ourselves.\u2019 <\/p>\n
For some reason, for even the most experienced of speakers, this is the thing that strikes fear. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 02:03 <\/p>\n
So bad. (I\u2019m really bad at that.) Me too. <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 02:04 <\/p>\n
(Don \u2019t know why). No one likes it. And for whatever reason in our heads, we suddenly go, \u2018what is my name?\u2019 <\/p>\n
You know your name. I know my name, but that\u2019s an exact example of the overthinking creeping going: do I know my name? I\u2019m sure I know my name, but now I don \u2019t think I know my name anymore, and we have to sort of push back on that and go, it\u2019s not just that I know my name. I know I know my name. <\/p>\n
So it\u2019s knowing you know your stuff. <\/p>\n
Second of all, you have to try. So you have to put yourself out there a little bit. <\/p>\n
The ethos of care less doesn\u2019t mean I\u2019m going to live a life of anarchy. It means I\u2019m going to take this huge amount of pressure off myself, but I \u2019m going to put myself out there. <\/p>\n
I am going to potentially make myself look just a little bit silly and see what happens. <\/p>\n
And if you embrace that idea that, \u2018okay, yeah, I might look a little bit silly, but let \u2019s see how this goes,\u2019 you will find the ethos of caring less falls into place. <\/p>\n
And just practicing. The more you prepare, the more you practice, the easier this kind of stuff gets. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 03:09 <\/p>\n
When you said that, it popped into my head that there are a lot of people who used to be cringe on the internet who are now very polished professionals when they put things out. <\/p>\n
And it\u2019s getting over that initial hurdle, whatever you\u2019re doing of, like, maybe you \u2019re cringeing at yourself, or you \u2019re like, \u2018Oh, that was not, you know, as good as I\u2019d like it to be, but I did it anyway. \u2019 <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 03:30 <\/p>\n
Yeah, totally. There is a story in the book about one of my clients who wanted to do that. <\/p>\n
They thought they could get…they were an independent management consultant. <\/p>\n
They wanted to get ahead of their competitors, and they thought the best way to do this would be little videos on LinkedIn. <\/p>\n
They\u2019d seen me do it. They wanted to do it. And they wanted those videos to look good. <\/p>\n
And so they took some coaching from me, and we get to the day of recording everything, set up, little studio like this. <\/p>\n
Everything\u2019s been paid for, and he just can\u2019t do it, and it\u2019s because that fear of looking silly is stopping him. <\/p>\n
And so I think I said something to him along the lines of, \u2018we\u2019re just going to do the first one, and you are going to look like a complete prat. And we \u2019ll just accept that this is going to be cringey and horrible, and you\u2019re going to hate it, but we \u2019ll record it, and then the next one will be better.\u2019 <\/p>\n
So it \u2019s exactly that. It\u2019s that, okay. \u2018I\u2019m going to be the clown here, and I don\u2019t mind what the result is, because at least I\u2019ve done it, and everyone else who sat there going, I couldn\u2019t possibly make a fool of myself hasn\u2019t.\u2019 <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 04:28 <\/p>\n
Yes, yeah, definitely. And when I think about scientists in this context, I often think about something that scientists need a lot, which is funding. <\/p>\n
So, if a scientist is going into a room to pitch for funding, what would be something that you think they need to know before they enter that room? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 04:49 <\/p>\n
I would tell them to ask themselves two questions. This is really important. <\/p>\n
One. Why am I here? <\/p>\n
Not having an existential crisis in the question. What is my objective? <\/p>\n
And to remind yourself that perhaps for a scientist in a pitching round, it\u2019s a slightly unusual situation. <\/p>\n
Don\u2019t lose sight of the fact you are there to ask for money. You are there to ask for investment. <\/p>\n
That is ultimately the outcome you\u2019re looking for. Hold on to that. <\/p>\n
Question number two. In all of that, what is the one sentence your audience needs to hear? <\/p>\n
Not \u2018this is a demonstration of how much knowledge I have.\u2019 <\/p>\n
Your audience already know that. <\/p>\n
And I think this is potentially a bit of a common mistake I see from people in the science, medical or pharmaceutical fields. <\/p>\n
Because their whole lives, they\u2019ve had to spend a lot of time proving their credibility, proving their research, showing evidence. <\/p>\n
That\u2019s then how they communicate. <\/p>\n
In a pitching setup: totally different. <\/p>\n
You need to respond to the audience and say, \u2018Okay, I\u2019m here to ask for your money. And this is why investing in me or this product or this piece of research is going to be beneficial.\u2019 <\/p>\n
So it\u2019s that. What\u2019s the one thing you want them to take away? <\/p>\n
There\u2019s a story in the book. It\u2019s ultimately based on a true story, and it\u2019s, again, a common problem. <\/p>\n
\u2018I\u2019ve got this piece of research. I\u2019ve developed this tool, or this thing that is going to, let\u2019s say it\u2019s going to screen for breast cancer super-fast, super quickly. \u2019 <\/p>\n
It would feel natural for someone who\u2019s done that research to go into that room and say, \u2018hey, look, look at all the research. Look at all the technical things I\u2019ve lined up to make this thing really very impressive.\u2019 <\/p>\n
In actual fact, the one message they need to land is: this product saves lives. <\/p>\n
You would be amazed at how many people miss the opportunity to land that message. <\/p>\n
Because your investors might come from a science background. <\/p>\n
Equally, they might not. <\/p>\n
What you can guarantee is they come from an investment background. If they can see how what you\u2019ve got saves lives, they are going to invest. <\/p>\n
So I think particularly for people in that field, it is about taking a big step back and going \u2018why am I here? What\u2019s the one thing I want to get across? \u2019 <\/p>\n
(Is that the same for any pitching?) <\/p>\n
I think actually, it applies to almost any piece of communication. (Okay) <\/p>\n
Even coming on here today, as I was walking around Liverpool Street Station, I said to myself: \u2018Right: why am I going on? And what\u2019s the one message I want to land? \u2019 <\/p>\n
And it just two questions, even if you\u2019ve had a rubbish day, will just kind of focus your mind. <\/p>\n
What\u2019s the one thing I want to get across here? <\/p>\n
So I would say they apply to anything. We tend to fall into a bit of a trap, and it\u2019s tied to what I was saying earlier. <\/p>\n
Everyone sort of goes out there and tells people what they want to tell them. <\/p>\n
Stop that. Take a big step back. And instead of telling people what you want to tell them, tell the audience what they need to hear. <\/p>\n
And if you can do that, you will never need to come along and be one of my clients ever again. <\/p>\n
But it is that point of going: \u2018It\u2019s not about me and how much I know and me proving myself and caring deeply about getting my message across. \u2019 <\/p>\n
It\u2019s about them. What do they want? <\/p>\n
Does that make sense? <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 07:49 <\/p>\n
Yeah, that does make sense. <\/p>\n
So how does storytelling come into this? <\/p>\n
Is there anything that people can know about how to be better storytellers in order to get whoever \u2019s listening, whether that\u2019s a conference audience or, you know, your team at work, to get them on board with your vision, or to convey information in the right way. <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 08:09 <\/p>\n
Great question. I see storytelling everywhere at the moment, hashtag, storytelling, <\/p>\n
It\u2019s all over LinkedIn. It\u2019s almost gotten point where I think we\u2019ve slightly lost meaning of the word. (What does it mean?) <\/p>\n
Who knows? <\/p>\n
My interpretation is storytelling is just a fancy word for using case studies. <\/p>\n
So if you use case studies, it doesn\u2019t matter how much your audience understand about what you \u2019re saying, or how completely foreign they are to it. <\/p>\n
If you use an example, aka a case study, aka a story, they will get it quickly. <\/p>\n
So let\u2019s come back to that example of, say, you\u2019ve created something that detects cancer faster. And instead of saying: \u2018Hello, I\u2019ve connected 47 participants in a study of 18,000 people. We\u2019ve discovered that…. \u2019 <\/p>\n
It\u2019s about going in with something that really grabs people very quickly. <\/p>\n
You could start with a date. TED talkers do that all the time. <\/p>\n
\u2018On 4 May 2016 I discovered a lump in my left breast. Had that lump been discovered just four weeks earlier, my chances of survival would have gone up 80%. We\u2019ve created something that \u2019s going to detect cancer in women of the age of 40 to 60, ten times faster. \u2019 <\/p>\n
And you see the case study I\u2019ve used there, which I\u2019ve completely made up on the spot, it\u2019s completely hypothetical for anyone listening, it\u2019s not only useful for you now to understand what I\u2019ve said, whether you \u2019re a scientist or not a scientist. But it\u2019s also just a lot more interesting. <\/p>\n
I think it\u2019s a lot more engaging than going: \u2018Hello. My name is Susie Ashfield. I\u2019ve been doing this for 20 years. Now let me list all of my qualifications before we get into the good stuff. \u2019 <\/p>\n
Start with a story and people want to engage with you. We are hard-wired to like storytelling and engaging with it. <\/p>\n
We\u2019ve been doing it really before we could even formally communicate. <\/p>\n
So if there is something in us that deeply, deeply needs that storytelling stuff, deliver it. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 10:04 <\/p>\n
And if you\u2019re not someone who, you know (very English reference), but like, who at the pub, you know they\u2019re not the one that everyone is looking to to, like, tell that story. Like, everyone\u2019s is not fixated on you, and you feel like, \u2018Oh, maybe it\u2019s just not me. \u2019 <\/p>\n
What would you say to them? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 10:22 <\/p>\n
I think that\u2019s a very normal concern to have. <\/p>\n
We all have that friend who is a brilliant storyteller, and they can make going to the shops for a packet of polo mints an epic tale. <\/p>\n
If that\u2019s not you, don\u2019t worry. <\/p>\n
All I would suggest you do is look at what you\u2019ve got and think about hypothetical characters. <\/p>\n
Behind numbers you have names. <\/p>\n
Behind facts you have faces. <\/p>\n
If you want to become a master storyteller, it\u2019s just about changing where you put the focus, changing the lens from the facts, to the faces of the people you\u2019re helping. A bit like creating an advert, or a bit like a newspaper article. <\/p>\n
In fact, if you want to kind of add a third question, take a big step back and go, \u2018Okay, how might a journalist find the human element here? \u2019 <\/p>\n
And if you can find that human element, you\u2019re done. Even if you make it up. You can start by saying, \u2018This is a hypothetical situation, but… \u2019 <\/p>\n
That\u2019s a really good way of just using storytelling to get across even the most complicated of scientific information. <\/p>\n
And I have to say, it is something…my clients, who I work with in this field, they tend to forget because they think it\u2019s not important. <\/p>\n
But when you are working with external audiences, even when you\u2019re working with internal audiences, it\u2019s a really nice way to grab people. <\/p>\n
And it\u2019s a really useful way to get across complicated information quickly. <\/p>\n
Use it. Try it. All it needs to have is three parts: beginning, middle, end. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 11:44 <\/p>\n
So someone who is using storytelling and really making that effort to engage the audience, rather than just saying information, is always going to stand out. <\/p>\n
That\u2019s the person you \u2019re going to remember at the end of the day. So…very worthwhile <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 11:56 <\/p>\n
Public speakers are made, not born. We meet people all the time. <\/p>\n
They\u2019re just naturally very good at this. \u2018Oh, they were just born that way. \u2019 <\/p>\n
Those people are my clients. If someone looks like they\u2019re a natural public speaker, if they look completely relaxed in front of the camera or conference, it\u2019s because they \u2019ve done it a million times before. <\/p>\n
Or they\u2019ve practiced it until they feel really confident. <\/p>\n
You know when Dolly Parton said \u2018it takes a lot of money to look this cheap,\u2019 it takes an awful lot of preparation and practice to look like a natural. <\/p>\n
So remember, it is normal to be nervous. Everyone feels nervous. If you\u2019re not feeling a little bit nervous, you are potentially either a toddler or a psychopath. <\/p>\n
Those are the two categories of people who just do not feel imposter syndrome on any level. <\/p>\n
So you should be feeling a little bit nervous. Nerves are a good thing. <\/p>\n
Come back to what I said. Ask yourself: \u2018why am I doing this? \u2019 <\/p>\n
Look how the guys at TED do it. Look how they take that key message, wrap a few interesting stories around it, attach a piece of research, a couple of statistics, no more than that, and suddenly they end up with 10-15 minutes of something that feels very natural, has very, very human elements, and it feels very normal, it feels very relatable. But it\u2019s got that key message that lands with impact. <\/p>\n
If you\u2019re looking for an idea as to how you go into that room feeling as confident as possible: practice. <\/p>\n
Practice out loud. You would be amazed how many people say, \u2018I hate public speaking and I\u2019ve got to do a presentation.\u2019 <\/p>\n
I go \u2018oh, how often you practising that presentation? \u2019 <\/p>\n
\u2018I haven\u2019t practiced it. I prepared it, and I\u2019ve been preparing it for the last 12 months. \u2019 <\/p>\n
But they haven \u2019t actually stood up and said those words out loud. Accept that you\u2019ll be nervous. Practice it, do it and then do it again. That\u2019s it. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 13:42 <\/p>\n
And at conferences, another thing that you often come across is networking. <\/p>\n
And maybe you\u2019ve gone there to network. And this book has honestly, some of the most practical advice for networking that I have ever read. <\/p>\n
Like, it\u2019s like, step-by-step. Like, not insulting anyone\u2019s intelligence, but it\u2019s a bit of a dummies guide but that, like, people need. <\/p>\n
It should be, yeah, so you go to an event, you know, you\u2019re there to maybe speak to people, but you\u2019re actually in the room and you\u2019re like, \u2018Oh, now I\u2019ve got to approach someone. \u2019 <\/p>\n
How can you get over that and comfortable feeling and actually go and start a conversation? <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 14:17<\/p>\n
If you are feeling a sense of, \u2018Oh, no, I want to…I have to talk to people. And I don\u2019t want to.\u2019 <\/p>\n
Remember that as a very normal feeling. And what you are feeling is not necessarily that, \u2018Oh, I have to say something.\u2019 <\/p>\n
You \u2019re actually experiencing a fear of rejection. What if I walk up to that person, they just turn away out of outrage that I\u2019ve started speaking to them. <\/p>\n
What if I say something so completely unhinged they just don\u2019t know what to do? <\/p>\n
What if there\u2019s an awkward silence? <\/p>\n
Get to the crux of the worry. And when you\u2019re there, realize that there is nothing real there. <\/p>\n
If someone doesn\u2019t want to engage with you, fine. Go and try someone else. But in an event that is labelled a networking event, people are expected to network. <\/p>\n
So perhaps on the Tube, it is absolutely not normal to walk up some go, \u2018hey, my name is Susie. I\u2019m a public speaker.\u2019 <\/p>\n
That \u2019s a bit unusual. But in something that is billed as a networking event, everyone has signed a silent contract in attending that event that says \u2018I will walk up and start speaking to you. You may walk up and start speaking to me.\u2019 <\/p>\n
If you\u2019ve got a few pointers, little stories, in your back pocket about how you can push through the small talk and get to the bigger questions, even better. <\/p>\n
Just a couple of little lines about, \u2018oh the journey, oh the weather, oh, this happened on my way \u2019 to the thing that will be helpful to you and it will be helpful to them. But don\u2019t be afraid to sort of comment on things that are happening around you, or \u2018what do you think of the last speaker? \u2019 <\/p>\n
\u2018Hey, I\u2019ve noticed this is a big theme. What are your thoughts on that? \u2019 <\/p>\n
Anything you like just to open up the other person, and then the easiest and most simple but effective trick of networking is to listen, ask the other person questions, listen to their answers, and now you are just having a conversation. Which you can do. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 16:05 <\/p>\n
Yeah, and what about when you need to go and talk to someone else? Is there any, are there any good pointers for how you do that without being rude or offending anyone? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 16:13 <\/p>\n
Yes, absolutely. I remember being at a networking event years ago, and I saw this happen beautifully, and I have never forgotten it. <\/p>\n
The best way to get out of a conversation at a networking event is, \u2018Please excuse me. I\u2019ve just seen some people over there. I\u2019ll come back. I really need to do some networking. \u2019 <\/p>\n
And it made me feel as though, \u2018oh yes, they must network with the other people. But they were enjoying talking to me.\u2019 <\/p>\n
And it\u2019s so interesting watching people who are really able to work a room. They enter into conversations, and they exit those conversations really, really easily, and they never cause any offence again. <\/p>\n
Because there\u2019s an expectation if you\u2019re at a networking event, you are there to network. But secondly, this idea of, \u2018I\u2019ve loved this. I \u2019ve just got to catch Fiona on a way out, so I\u2019m just going to grab her. We\u2019ll come back. \u2019 <\/p>\n
And then if you do come back, fantastic. You are now really working the room. <\/p>\n
So that \u2018excuse me while I go and network.\u2019 One of the best ways of just politely moving on from that conversation. Being honest. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 17:11 <\/p>\n
And you also wrote that it can work quite well if you don\u2019t come in with pursed lips, you have your mouth slightly open. Why? Is that? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 17:24 <\/p>\n
Very practical reason. If you suffer from a syndrome, which I experienced, called resting bitch face. <\/p>\n
Didn\u2019t ask you whether I was allowed to say the word fat. But there we are, you won\u2019t look approachable. It\u2019s a really strange thing. <\/p>\n
So if ever I\u2019m walking into a room, I just have my mouth slightly open, not closed, because if I have my mouth closed, I look miserable even if I\u2019m not. <\/p>\n
Even if I\u2019m in a really cheerful mood, I\u2019ve made myself look miserable. It\u2019s a lot harder to approach someone who looks like they are suffering a dark cloud. <\/p>\n
It\u2019s a lot easier to approach somebody going, \u2018Hi, look, I\u2019m ready to be to be spoken to who I am drinking my hand I\u2019m looking like, yes, you\u2019re the person I want to speak to.\u2019 <\/p>\n
So a soft, relaxed face really goes a long way. <\/p>\n
Yeah, open body language counts for a lot. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 18:08 <\/p>\n
So let\u2019s take us kind of into an environment with your colleagues. How do you just f**king say it if you\u2019re in a really hierarchical environment. What do you do then? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 18:19 <\/p>\n
Well, I think it\u2019s an interesting setup you\u2019ve given me there. I suppose my question would be: \u2018if you were a scientist: what\u2019s stopping you? \u2019 <\/p>\n
Why have we suddenly said, \u2018well, there\u2019s a hierarchy. \u2019 <\/p>\n
Why does that suddenly say, \u2018well, I couldn\u2019t possibly say the thing I\u2019m thinking of, because there\u2019s a hierarchy.\u2019 <\/p>\n
There\u2019s a hierarchy everywhere. <\/p>\n
Yeah. But if you say, \u2018well, I\u2019ve only been here two weeks, and I have to be here for 20 years before I can even think about putting an idea out\u2019 you are going to find you trap yourself in this little box of \u2018I can\u2019t say anything unless I absolutely know it\u2019s going to be correct, or brilliant, or useful. \u2019 <\/p>\n
If you do that thing of caring less and giving yourself to say, \u2018okay, do you know what I\u2019ve got this idea, there is a good chance this idea might be bad, or wrong, or just completely rubbish.\u2019 <\/p>\n
Allowing yourself to go, \u2018okay, this, this is a rough draft. Look. This is just something I\u2019m thinking.\u2019 <\/p>\n
Roll it into the room. See what happens. Because in our heads we\u2019ve got this idea that someone \u2019s going to stand and go, \u2018that\u2019s a terrible idea. How dare you? \u2019 <\/p>\n
The worst thing that could happen in this country is someone goes interesting and then moves on. <\/p>\n
If you\u2019re not English and you listen to this, you\u2019ve just been insulted. You\u2019ve thrown something out there. You\u2019ve gotten your voice into the space, and the next time, it feels a little bit easier. <\/p>\n
That\u2019s why the preparation and practice bit is so important. <\/p>\n
What\u2019s my statement? What\u2019s the evidence or the example, I can attach to it, and then I\u2019m going to wrap it up with the statement again. <\/p>\n
You can acronym that, SES: statement, example, statement. Throw that out, and you\u2019ve got something quite useful onto the table. <\/p>\n
But don\u2019t let this idea of hierarchy hold you back. It is very rarely the people at the top who are thinking about the hierarchy. It is always the people who are somewhere in the middle who are most worried about it, because they\u2019re kind of moving through it, right? <\/p>\n
Often I find with the people at the top, they\u2019re looking down, and they\u2019ve got this sensation of \u2018the higher up you go, the further I have to fall.\u2019 <\/p>\n
And the people who sort of, on day one obviously feel like they need to prove themselves. <\/p>\n
But give yourself permission to get it wrong, <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 20:23 <\/p>\n
And what if you\u2019ve you know, you\u2019ve shared some ideas with your boss. And your boss is just fundamentally not a very nice person. Or a very difficult person, difficult character. <\/p>\n
What would be your advice on how to handle that relationship and communicate effectively? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 20:42 <\/p>\n
If you just have someone who is a bit hot-headed, a little bit bullish when they don\u2019t necessarily need to be, ask yourself why that\u2019s happening. Why are they taking this route? <\/p>\n
Normally, and I\u2019m sort of speculating a bit here because I you know we \u2019re not talking about a specific character, but normally, when someone is behaving like that, there is a reason for it. <\/p>\n
And the reason for it is this: in the past, it\u2019s worked. <\/p>\n
If you have found that shouting \u2018jump\u2019 really loudly at someone results in them jumping, why would you not use that tactic again? <\/p>\n
It\u2019s worked in the past. Do you see what I mean? <\/p>\n
So you just need to be the person who\u2019s going to push back, be the adult in the room say, \u2018well, actually, I\u2019m going to finish this comment now. To come back to what I was saying earlier. \u2019 <\/p>\n
Don \u2019t take their bullish nature personally. That\u2019s sort of what they want. <\/p>\n
You need to stay rational. You need to stay calm. You need to get your point across, perhaps in a way that they want to hear that message. <\/p>\n
I came across some characters recently who did have a boss who would very quickly change their mind about what they wanted. \u2018I want it this way. \u2019 <\/p>\n
So they give it to them that way. And \u2018no, no, now I want it this way. \u2019 <\/p>\n
And they take this pushback, this sudden change very, very personally. As though it was they had done something wrong. <\/p>\n
They hadn\u2019t done something wrong at all. They were just dealing with a character who moved at a million miles an hour, changed their mind every 15 seconds, and they just wanted information delivered in a certain way. <\/p>\n
With characters like that, all you can do is expect the unexpected. <\/p>\n
But remember, someone is behaving like a bully, because in the short term, it has worked for them. <\/p>\n
In the long term, it is not going to hold out. <\/p>\n
But you need to show them that that kind of reactive behaviour is not the way they\u2019re going to get the best result from you. <\/p>\n
Hold your ground. Stay calm. Be the adult in the room. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 22:35 <\/p>\n
So that example you gave of someone who changes their mind a lot, and you know, to try and expect the unexpected, is that sustainable to work in that environment? <\/p>\n
For the person who is expecting the unexpected all the time, <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 22:55 <\/p>\n
I think that depends very much on the individual. I think that\u2019s down to you. Some people can deal with it. Some people understand that \u2018okay, this is just how they communicate.\u2019 <\/p>\n
And if on Monday they say they want a high-level overview. And then on Tuesday they say they want the details. <\/p>\n
I can either learn how to be prepared for both, or I can just understand that this person is going to give feedback, they\u2019re going to give feedback in a very strong way. And if I\u2019m able to deal with that, fantastic. <\/p>\n
I\u2019ll be able to be flexible. I\u2019ll be able to grow with them, but I will also be able to push back when it matters and say, \u2018do you know what? I\u2019m not going to jump the moment you say jump at me. \u2019 <\/p>\n
If that doesn\u2019t work for you, that\u2019s a very personal choice, and you have to decide when enough is enough. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 23:39 <\/p>\n
Moving along from the tricky characters. Say your boss is, you know, absolutely fine to work with. Great. <\/p>\n
But you want a pay rise. What is your advice to someone before they enter that room and ask for that raise? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 23:56 <\/p>\n
Prepare for the conversation. Absolutely prepare for the conversation. You have been thinking about it for some time, I\u2019m going to guess. <\/p>\n
But now you need to prepare how you\u2019re actually going to say it. <\/p>\n
I would also prepare the other side if you can. So that they\u2019re not caught on the back foot. <\/p>\n
Put your case together. And just in the same way, if you had a product you wanted to pitch for business for, put your case together as to why you deserve that salary increase. <\/p>\n
A lot of people don\u2019t like to ask that question. And the reason is: they fear rejection. They fear if someone says, \u2018No, I\u2019m not going to give you a salary increase. That is directly linked to my credibility.\u2019 <\/p>\n
That\u2019s really not the case. If you can afford to give a salary increase, if one\u2019s asked for, that will happen. And then sometimes it isn\u2019t in the budget. That\u2019s not necessarily a reflection of how you are as a professional. <\/p>\n
So if you do receive pushback, that\u2019s absolutely fine. <\/p>\n
Be brave enough to have a conversation. Know how you \u2019re going to phrase it. Pull your case together clearly. Be really very binary, almost as though… <\/p>\n
Here\u2019s a little bit of a trick I use. Imagine you are thinking of a friend and you are helping them prepare a statement for why they deserve a pay rise. <\/p>\n
And that just kind of takes the emotional side out of it. And you are now going to feel a lot more comfortable about asking what you want to ask for. <\/p>\n
Then have the conversation. <\/p>\n
The most important part of this is not that you get the money or that you don\u2019t get the money. The most important part of this is knowing what you have to do in order to get that pay rise. <\/p>\n
You want to either reach a compromise. You want to either reach a place of knowing what happens next. <\/p>\n
But if you leave that conversation knowing exactly the hoops you need to go through, exactly what the stages are in order to get where you want to, that is a conversation well worth having, not to be avoided, and worth it every time. <\/p>\n
You\u2019re also going to indicate the other person. \u2018Look, I\u2019m determined this is what I want. I\u2019ve got my eyes on something.\u2019 <\/p>\n
And they\u2019re going to start to be able to hopefully help you. If they value you, they\u2019re going to help you reach that goal with you. It\u2019s going to be a collaborative effort. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 26:00 <\/p>\n
Yeah, definitely. <\/p>\n
And this conversation might be not the best thing if someone is just trying to get their foot through the door. They\u2019ve not got the job that they want yet. <\/p>\n
So what should someone do if they\u2019re going for a job interview? <\/p>\n
What is the best way to put their best foot forward? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 26:18 <\/p>\n
I think, for this field in particular, (and this is the message I was hoping to land as I was thinking about what to say for this podcast) there is something called the curse of knowledge. <\/p>\n
And this comes back to what I was saying about: you as a scientist, you as someone who works in in this field, know a lot of stuff. <\/p>\n
The temptation in that interview is to go, \u2018hey, look how much stuff I know.\u2019 And almost just kind of relay it into the interview. <\/p>\n
The curse of knowledge is this cognitive bias. It \u2019s the idea that we assume everyone has the same level of knowledge that we do. That is unlikely to be true for your interviewer. Or maybe they even know more. <\/p>\n
What you need to do is carefully prepare case studies. It\u2019s the same old story. If they ask you for the time you led a team. If they ask you for time you had a breakthrough. If they ask you how do you deal with clients? <\/p>\n
Have a series of stories lined up, a selection of case studies, almost a library, and a lesson from each one. <\/p>\n
And if you feel like you are just matching the question to the case study intro, \u2018and what I learned there was x, and the outcome of that was y.\u2019 <\/p>\n
If you just have a selection of stories that you are ready to reel out to the interviewer, that is going to stop you from going into that \u2018hey, here\u2019s everything I know about the question you \u2019ve just asked. And we\u2019re 10 minutes in, and remind me of the question again? \u2019 <\/p>\n
So stay on track with that selection of stories, and the one statement you want to get across. That\u2019s my tip for interviews. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 27:43 <\/p>\n
If you\u2019re really early career, say, maybe it\u2019s even your first job. You maybe don\u2019t have that many examples to draw from. Is there anything that is advisable in that case? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 27:53 <\/p>\n
Life is an example. Fine, if they ask for something specific and you don\u2019t have it, absolutely fine. No one is expecting you to suddenly (actually, maybe that\u2019s not true). People sort of say \u2018we want ten years experience and we want to hire you ten weeks in.\u2019 <\/p>\n
Even if that\u2019s the case, even if you don\u2019t have the right level of experience, you have experienced things. <\/p>\n
So let me, let me think of an example. Perhaps you haven\u2019t led a team on a science project, but perhaps you can think about what the word leadership means to you. <\/p>\n
\u2018Do you know what? Actually, I was cycling home one day, and I saw somebody by the side of the road, and small group had formed. And we had to work together to get the ambulance that person before. And this is what I saw my role as being in that slightly strange but useful situation. It was my job to keep everyone calm. I was the one who called 999. And for me, that\u2019s what leadership looks like.\u2019 <\/p>\n
Doesn\u2019t necessarily need to be linked to the field. If you don\u2019t have any experience in that field yet.<\/p>\n
Holly Newson 28:48 <\/p>\n
That\u2019s such good advice. I\u2019d never thought of….I had thought of life examples, but never something so specific. Like, I can even think of something where as a first aider, I was the one that stepped in. I never would have thought to use an example. <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 29:01 <\/p>\n
You would have used communication, you would use leadership, you would have used listening. So we\u2019re using these skills all the time. <\/p>\n
Just keep collecting those stories. Curate them, hold on to them. Make a little library in your head. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 29:11 <\/p>\n
And one thing I didn\u2019t expect to find in this book was advice on how to, in our busy brains, have good, original ideas. <\/p>\n
So what do you have to share on that side of things, on how we can kind of free up our minds, our space, and have ideas that otherwise we might not have had? <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 29:28 <\/p>\n
Brace yourself. Put your phone down. <\/p>\n
I think you knew that. <\/p>\n
And I think anyone listening to that question knew that as well. <\/p>\n
It \u2019s tough, isn\u2019t it? It is tough. And we\u2019re getting more and more addicted to the little bricks we carry around in our hands. <\/p>\n
Not far from where we\u2019re sat right now, there is an amazing statue, the Five Tonne Venus. <\/p>\n
She is five tonnes of pure woman reclining nude. It\u2019s wonderful. I love this statue. It\u2019s huge. <\/p>\n
And whenever I\u2019m around Liverpool Street, I go and take a look at her. And you just watch these people just ignore it. <\/p>\n
And we walk past interesting things all the time. The Underground. Fascinating things are happening on the Underground all the time. And we choose to ignore it because a phone is easy. <\/p>\n
It creates the creativity for us. It does our thinking for us. And if we\u2019re tired, and if we\u2019re busy, and if we \u2019re overwhelmed, how nice it is to have that screen just absorb all of that for us. <\/p>\n
So we need to be quite regimented in bringing back creativity. <\/p>\n
Think about things that inspire you. Trailers to movies. You don \u2019t have to read a whole book. Just dip into little bits of it. Pictures. Your surroundings. Break out of the environment you\u2019re used to. If you\u2019re stuck in the same little four walls every day trying to come up with new ideas, it\u2019s not going to happen. <\/p>\n
Treat yourself to a lunch, or a walk, and just put your phone down. Listen to some music. Work out what stimulates and fires those creative thoughts, and you will find they start to come back to you. <\/p>\n
But creativity is a muscle that we need to keep flexing. <\/p>\n
The more we flex it, the easier it becomes to use. The easier it is to come up with different ways of thinking and brand new ideas. <\/p>\n
Put your phone down, change your environment, do something different.<\/p>\n
Holly Newson 31:20 <\/p>\n
Yeah, I think it\u2019s that, that space, that breaking out of the, what your brain expects to happen next. It expects you to pick up your phone, you know, you\u2019re, you\u2019re on whatever app is your preferred method of, you know, passing time. <\/p>\n
And then you\u2019re either, if you\u2019re on a journey, you\u2019ve, you\u2019ve got to, you \u2019re from A to B. And you\u2019re there, and you haven\u2019t thought really about anything. <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 31:40 <\/p>\n
Yeah, where did that time go? I \u2019ve got an app blocker now, because it was just draining and draining and draining. And it is quite good. Thoughts are coming back. Freedom of thought. <\/p>\n
Oh, wow, yeah, I remember nostalgia and thinking about this and thinking about that, and not just being fed stuff, to be honest, I don\u2019t even want to see anyway. Break yourself free. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 32:01 <\/p>\n
And Socrates makes an appearance in your book. <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 32:05 <\/p>\n
Does he? I\u2019m glad one of us has read it!<\/p>\n
Holly Newson 32:09 <\/p>\n
So whether or not you can remember this part of the book, we\u2019ll find out. What can we all learn from Socrates? If you need to it\u2019s on page 19. <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 32:18 <\/p>\n
Shall we take a look? With a brand new copy as well? I can sign this for you if you if you like. But it will devalue the books. <\/p>\n
I\u2019ll warn you of that. <\/p>\n
It\u2019s the idea that if you are worried about something, and I think as human beings, we\u2019re worried about stuff all the time. What am I worried about? What am I actually worried about? How likely is that to happen? <\/p>\n
So I\u2019ll give you an example. <\/p>\n
It is really normal to be nervous. And you can spend weeks being nervous. I have clients who take betablockers to lower their heart rate before they go on stage. <\/p>\n
I don\u2019t recommend that. <\/p>\n
I have clients who throw up before they do presentations or important meetings because they are so nervous. <\/p>\n
Start to sit with those really uncomfortable feelings. <\/p>\n
And what Socrates says is, use a cognitive approach to drill into the fear, not run away from it. Really ask yourself, \u2018what am I actually frightened of? \u2019 <\/p>\n
An example answer to that might be something as simple as, \u2018okay, well, I know what I\u2019m saying, but what if I go bright red? \u2019 <\/p>\n
Fine. What \u2019s the fear behind going bright red? <\/p>\n
\u2018What if I go bright red and people see that I\u2019ve gone bright red? \u2019 <\/p>\n
Fine. What \u2019s the problem there? <\/p>\n
\u2018What if I go bright red? People see that I go bright red and they judge me. They decide that because I\u2019ve gone bright red I\u2019m nervous, and therefore I\u2019ve lost all professional credibility in front of them. And what if they start talking about me behind my back?\u2019 <\/p>\n
\u2018And what if, what if I lose my job? \u2019 <\/p>\n
And the moment you\u2019ve really put a pin in that thought and laid it out, you go, that is completely irrational. If this is what I \u2019m frightened of, now that I know this is what I \u2019m frightened of, it doesn\u2019t really make sense. <\/p>\n
Or if you are a client, you\u2019re telling me that, and you feel in the moment that it does make sense, and there is a very high chance of that happening. I\u2019ll accept that, because I can\u2019t tell you you \u2019re not frightened of something. <\/p>\n
But I will ask you how much evidence you have behind it. <\/p>\n
So I might say to you, \u2018okay, Holly, how many times has that happened before? \u2019 <\/p>\n
And you\u2019ll say, going bright red. \u2018oh, all the time. \u2019 <\/p>\n
And I go, \u2018okay, you \u2019re going to go back red. How much evidence have you got to suggest that people can see it? Has anyone ever mentioned it to you?\u2019 <\/p>\n
\u2018Once, when I was a child? \u2019 <\/p>\n
(Great). \u2018And in that time since then? \u2019 <\/p>\n
Not often? Okay, great. <\/p>\n
And now that final question. How many times have you ever received any kind of evidence: written feedback, but written feedback, verbal feedback, from someone saying, \u2018I thought you\u2019re a great person, but you went bright red in that presenation. And now, as a result of that, I just don\u2019t trust you as a professional anymore.\u2019 <\/p>\n
And the moment you sort of start to say it and make me go, I\u2019m worrying about something that\u2019s irrational. My anxious brain is overthinking every single thought in my head, and I\u2019m worried about something that is not going to happen. And it\u2019s that method that Socrates said of: Just come on. Logic. One step after the other. <\/p>\n
This is how I confront the fear, and it\u2019s the same way actually they deal with people who are frightened of flying or anxious without exams. <\/p>\n
It\u2019s that same process of just logical questioning to get to the root of the fear and then seeing what\u2019s really underneath it. How much can you challenge that? <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 35:24 <\/p>\n
Yeah, and I feel like that connects really nicely back to caring less. Because if you have that fear and that anxiety, it\u2019s really difficult to care less. So sitting with it and unpacking it helps you at least get towards that stage. <\/p>\n
(Yeah), I think, which is much needed. <\/p>\n
I don\u2019t know. I think, like you said, no one is a natural speaker. It\u2019s about doing it over and over again and confronting that fear, whatever it might be. <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 35:51 <\/p>\n
It\u2019s normal to be nervous. You know, if you \u2019re going to the airport, if you\u2019re going to catch a plane. <\/p>\n
If you put your passport in your top pocket, you know it \u2019s in your top pocket, but your brain keeps telling you, \u2018where\u2019s my passport? Where\u2019s my passport, where\u2019s my… \u2019 <\/p>\n
And you end up checking your pocket ten times in between leaving your house and going to the airport. <\/p>\n
Now the upshot of that is that you will remember your passport. <\/p>\n
The downside is that you are overthinking something that you already have evidence for. That\u2019s sort of how anxiety works. It is really normal that your brain sort of overthinks these things in order for you to arrive at the airport with your passport. <\/p>\n
So it\u2019s natural, but often unhelpful. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 36:30 <\/p>\n
And so is there any one last takeaway, anything that we haven\u2019t touched on, that you would love people to know about Just F**king Say It, your book. <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 36:39 <\/p>\n
Just F**king Say It was written for a number of reasons. <\/p>\n
But I think the title is really important. <\/p>\n
I got pushback on the title, but I fought for it, and the reason is this. <\/p>\n
At the end of the day, when I have given my client all of the advice I can give them, that is the last piece of advice I have left. <\/p>\n
Just do it. Just do it. Just do it and see what happens. <\/p>\n
And if you fail, if it goes wrong, (there\u2019s no such thing as wrong) but if it goes wrong, if it doesn’t land how you want it to land, the consequence of that is very rarely anything worse than having to do it again next week. <\/p>\n
The more you do it, the easier it gets. <\/p>\n
But everything in the book will only work for the people who are willing to give it a go in its smallest possible format. <\/p>\n
There\u2019s a whole chapter in there, for example, on saying no. <\/p>\n
People want to get better at saying no. <\/p>\n
\u2018I need to say no to that person who\u2019s asked me for a pay rise because we don \u2019t have that in the pot yet. But I know I am a people pleaser. I know I hate saying no.\u2019 <\/p>\n
If you can \u2019t say no to the big things. Yet, the next time you walk into a cafe and they say no to the napkin, say no to the sugar with that, no thank you. <\/p>\n
Just start finding small ways of trying this stuff out before you build up to the big stuff. <\/p>\n
So the last point of the book is the title Just F**king Say It. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 38:00 <\/p>\n
I think it\u2019s, I think it\u2019s great advice to just you. You ultimately have to try things. And if that trying thing is saying something that feels uncomfortable, got to give it a go. <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 38:09 <\/p>\n
Absolutely. And also, I like the idea of people walking into very quiet library and going, have you got a copy of Just F**king Say It. So that was, that was another thought I had. <\/p>\n
But mostly it\u2019s the first one. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 38:20 <\/p>\n
Well, Susie, thank you so much for joining me and such a joint chat, and I really appreciate it. <\/p>\n
Susie Ashfield 38:25 <\/p>\n
This was so much fun. Thank you. Bye. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
Holly Newson 00:00 Welcome to Working Scientist, a Nature Careers podcast. I\u2019m Holly Newson, and in this series, you \u2019ll hear from authors who can help you in your career. In this episode, I\u2019m joined by Susie Ashfield, a speech and communication coach, and the author of Just F**king Say It, a book that helps<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":46630,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[58],"tags":[23761,165,3223,6582,19499,23760,1818,20820,8229],"class_list":{"0":"post-46629","1":"post","2":"type-post","3":"status-publish","4":"format-standard","5":"has-post-thumbnail","7":"category-science","8":"tag-ashfield","9":"tag-care","10":"tag-coach","11":"tag-conference","12":"tag-nervous","13":"tag-networker","14":"tag-presenter","15":"tag-susie","16":"tag-voice"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/naijaglobalnews.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/46629","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/naijaglobalnews.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/naijaglobalnews.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/naijaglobalnews.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/naijaglobalnews.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=46629"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/naijaglobalnews.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/46629\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/naijaglobalnews.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/46630"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/naijaglobalnews.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=46629"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/naijaglobalnews.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=46629"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/naijaglobalnews.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=46629"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}