\n<\/p>\n
Subscribe here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts<\/em><\/p>\n For a guy in charge of local schools, Oklahoma State Superintendent Ryan Walters generates an unusual amount of national news. This week, Walters announced a plan to create chapters of Turning Point USA, the conservative organization co-founded by Charlie Kirk, at every Oklahoma high school. Earlier this month, Walters had ordered a moment of silence in honor of the death of Kirk at all Oklahoma public schools, and now the State Department of Education says it\u2019s investigating claims that some districts did not comply. Oklahoma Governor Kevin Stitt, who had previously appointed Walters as his secretary of education, once accused Walters of \u201cusing kids as political pawns.\u201d State Democrats have called for an impeachment probe, and some Republicans have signed their own letter asking for an investigation of Walters. Parents, teachers, and religious leaders have sued Walters, the State Department of Education, and the State Board of Education for injecting religion into schools. And this past summer, two school-board members reported that they saw nude women on a television in his office during a board meeting. (Investigators concluded that the incident merely involved an R-rated movie randomly playing on a preprogrammed channel.) In the meantime, Oklahoma schools are ranked near the bottom for reading and math scores on the Nation\u2019s Report Card.<\/p>\n In the second episode of a two-part series on Oklahoma schools, we talk to Walters about what he\u2019s trying to accomplish in Oklahoma schools. We ask about the ideological purity test he\u2019s announced for teachers coming from \u201cplaces like California and New York.\u201d We ask about his push for changes to the curriculum, including a requirement that high-school history students \u201cidentify discrepancies in 2020 elections results.\u201d We ask about the television incident. And we hear from two Oklahoma teachers who have taken very different paths in the face of changes under way in their state. You can listen to Episode 1 of the series here.<\/p>\n The following is a transcript of the episode:<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n Ryan Walters (from KOKH Fox 25):<\/strong> Pornography. Pornography should not be in our schools. No parent should send their child to school and their child have access to graphic pornography.<\/p>\n [Music<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Hanna Rosin: <\/strong>In our first episode about Oklahoma public schools, we talked about the rise of State Superintendent Ryan Walters and all the changes he\u2019s making. In this year\u2019s new curriculum, he added dozens of references to Christianity, an instruction to high-school history students to identify discrepancies in the 2020 election\u2014although those standards have just been paused for now by the Oklahoma Supreme Court. Walters announced an ideological purity test for some teachers coming in from out of state. And he tried to make sure that certain books were not on the shelves.<\/p>\n Walters (from Fox News): <\/strong>Hey, when we send our kids to school, we are not expecting them to be able to check out a book from the library that\u2019s got explicit pornography in it. And unfortunately, this is a tactic we\u2019ve seen of the far left.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>We also talked to a pair of former students of Coach Walters\u2014that\u2019s what they called him\u2014who described him as an exceedingly cool history teacher. A secret Democrat, one of them had guessed.<\/p>\n Starla Edge: <\/strong>His whole thing about wokeism, I truly don\u2019t understand, because he was woke. He was woke!<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>So we went to Oklahoma City to interview Walters and try to square the circle.<\/p>\n [Music<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>I\u2019m Hanna Rosin. This is Radio Atlantic<\/em>. In this second of a two-part series about Oklahoma public education, an interview with Walters about what he\u2019s up to. Also about that weird scandal we mentioned at the end of the first episode, where two State Board of Education members said they saw naked women on a TV in Walters\u2019s office.<\/p>\n Turns out that it wasn\u2019t really a scandal, but the way Walters handled it revealed maybe a bigger problem for Oklahoma public schools\u2014the actual thing we should be calling the scandal. We\u2019ll get into it later.<\/p>\n Ryan Walters: <\/strong>How are y\u2019all doin\u2019?<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Hey, how are you?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Ryan Walters.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Nice to meet you.<\/p>\n Walters:<\/strong> Nice to meet you.<\/p>\n Jinae West: <\/strong>Hi. Jinae.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Jinae, very nice to meet you.<\/p>\n West:<\/strong> Nice to meet you.<\/p>\n Walters:<\/strong> Oh, man, that\u2019s a nice-looking microphone right here. Is this my coffee\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Arriving at Ryan Walters\u2019s office earlier this summer was not like arriving at the office of a guy who\u2019s in charge of a state school system. We were greeted by two staff members who had come from other states to work for him.<\/p>\n Walters has a reputation in young conservative circles as an exciting person to work for\u2014someone who was going places. He\u2019d already teased that he was considering a run for the governor of Oklahoma.<\/p>\n And despite being at the center of an awkward scandal at the very moment we arrived, Walters\u2019s energy when he greeted us was the opposite of awkward.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>I am a, like, easily a pot and a half of coffee a day.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Pot?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Oh, yeah. \u200aI do have my\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Pot?<\/p>\n Walters: \u2014<\/strong>blood pressure checked.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>(Laughs<\/em>.) Pot.<\/p>\n Walters:<\/strong> That goes back to my teaching days. I would set it every morning. When I rolled in at 6:30, it was premade there, room smelled like coffee. My kids would come in for tutoring before school, and they\u2019d go, It already smells like coffee<\/em>. I\u2019m going, It\u2019s already made, guys. It\u2019s ready to go<\/em>.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Speaking of Walters\u2019s teaching days, I started by asking about his time as a history teacher. He said he doesn\u2019t think he\u2019s changed since then, so I was trying to figure out: Did he just have different rules back then? Like, he used to not think it was ok to talk about Bibles in class, but then he changed his mind?<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Being a Christian and a teacher, how did you manage that in public school? Did you have rules for yourself? There are things I can mention and can\u2019t mention. I\u2019m not gonna talk about the Bible. I\u2019m not gonna talk about my own faith<\/em>. What were the lines that you drew as a teacher?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Yeah, great question. So I taught history and government. So one of the things I always tried to make sure that the kids knew is, first of all, I didn\u2019t ever\u2014my kids, it was always an ongoing debate of: What is he? What is his political beliefs?<\/em> And I would always tell \u2019em: I\u2019m not gonna talk about mine here in school. I\u2019m not gonna talk about those things. I\u2019m gonna tell you: \u201cThis is what some folks believe. Here\u2019s what other folks believe. Here\u2019s the sources. Sort through it, and figure it out for yourself.\u201d<\/em><\/p>\n Now, look, hey, we had a Bible in the classroom. We talked about the role the Bible played in American history. It was always done in an academic setting. It was always done in its historical context. I wasn\u2019t pushing religion on the kids. I wasn\u2019t pushing a political belief.<\/p>\n And, like I said, the kids always, you know, they\u2019d: Who\u2019d you vote for? Who\u2019d\u2014<\/em> And I\u2019d go, Guys, I don\u2019t care to\u2014I\u2019m not trying to keep it from you; I mean, I\u2019ll talk about it somewhere else. You\u2019ll know if your parents talk to me out at a restaurant or something. I don\u2019t mind that. But when we\u2019re here, I\u2019m talking about academics<\/em>. We\u2019re gonna talk about, \u201cA lot of people believe different things,\u201d and I want you guys to hear all of that, and you guys come to your own conclusion<\/em>.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Mm-hmm. And why? Why was it important not to talk about things in the classroom?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Well, now, I will say we talked about things, now, and I\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Not to talk about your own personal belief?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>I just felt like that was incredibly important when you\u2019re talking about: Hey, we\u2019ll talk about every political issue; we\u2019ll talk about all of it<\/em>. But I wanted them to know: You\u2019re gonna get all sides<\/em>. You\u2019re not gonna have a teacher that\u2019s gonna come in and go,<\/em> \u201cThis is the side you should believe.\u201d My beliefs are separate from this<\/em>. You\u2019re gonna come in, I\u2019m gonna give you the best education I can, and I wanna see you come to your own conclusion<\/em>.<\/p>\n [Music<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>\u201cPeople believe different things.\u201d \u201cYou\u2019re gonna get all sides.\u201d That is a very open-minded approach\u2014which does not at all square with what he\u2019s done as superintendent.<\/p>\n In an interview once, Walters said: \u201cIf you\u2019re going to come into our state, don\u2019t come in with these blue-state values.\u201d And then right before this school year started, he announced he would administer a kind of purity test to some new teachers coming from out of state.<\/p>\n \u201cOklahoma\u2019s schools,\u201d he said, \u201cwill not be a haven for woke agendas pushed in places like California and New York. If you want to teach here, you\u2019d better know the Constitution, respect what makes America great, and understand basic biology.\u201d<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>So you recently talked about\u2014you called it either an ideology test or a certification test. What\u2019s the purpose of something like that?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Right, yeah, absolutely. So the purpose is\u2014listen, you know, it\u2019s not complicated for us here in Oklahoma. There\u2019s two genders: There\u2019s male, and there\u2019s female. There\u2019s not 27. There\u2019s not gender fluidity. That\u2019s not something that we want left-wing activists pushing on our kids.<\/p>\n So when I see a state like California come out and say, Now, actually, every teacher, we\u2019re gonna teach it that way. That\u2019s gonna be a demand, came from the governor himself. That\u2019s what we\u2019re gonna teach<\/em>. Okay, well, our standards say otherwise.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>So if you\u2019re gonna come into our state and teach\u2014and we are recruiting heavily. I\u2019ve recruited more teachers to our state than ever before in history. We had the biggest signing bonuses in the country to bring teachers here. We put teachers on a path to merit pay, where they can make six figures in the classroom, got a thousand teachers on track for that.<\/p>\n So we are very excited to have the top educators in the country right here in Oklahoma, but we are absolutely not gonna take left-wing activists who have been indoctrinated themselves by a radical state like California. So, listen, you gotta know the difference between male and female. You gotta agree that you\u2019re gonna teach that in our standards. And we\u2019re just gonna make sure that we\u2019re not gonna invite that into the state of Oklahoma.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>So if Walters thought that way about gender, how was he gonna handle sexuality?<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Now, \u200aI\u2019m gonna ask in a pretty simple way: Let\u2019s say I\u2019m a gay parent, and I don\u2019t have any particular ideology. I\u2019m a parent. I\u2019m married to a same-gender person.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Sure.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>I have a child in the schools. Am I welcome in Oklahoma schools?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Absolutely. Every child of every background, every parent of every background is welcome in Oklahoma schools. Our goal is to give every single child the best education possible. It doesn\u2019t matter your political leanings, doesn\u2019t matter your views on anything. It doesn\u2019t matter\u2014we want you to have the best education possible. That is, you know, we want every kid to feel welcome. We want every kid to be supported. We want every single child to succeed.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>But do you understand how a parent wouldn\u2019t feel that way if you, the state superintendent of education, saying, We want people with red-state values in our public schools<\/em>? Do you see how a parent would feel unwelcome in a school like that?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>No, I don\u2019t. We\u2019ve been very clear of what the vision is. The vision is\u2014 everyone should agree on this. And I do. And I get people all across the political spectrum\u2014I had Democrats grabbing me all the time on the campaign trail. They may not agree with school choice. They might not agree with everything. But they go, You\u2019re a hundred percent right. We should get schools back to teaching the basics<\/em>. We should all be able to agree on that.<\/p>\n And it is unfortunate that we\u2019ve got one party that says\u2014the Democrats have said, Schools are a weapon to be used to push our ideology on kids<\/em>. They have a political agenda. Our goal is to take that political agenda out. That is what red states, that\u2019s what red governors have been doing. And that\u2019s what we\u2019ve been leading the charge on, to say, No, this is the vision<\/em>. Everybody should be able to agree on this, frankly.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>So in your view, it\u2019s exclusively the left that has politicized the schools?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Absolutely. Absolutely.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>\u200aInteresting. I mean, there was a whole period of when there was a Republican agenda to take over state school boards and think about schools\u2014<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Sure.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>\u2014but to you, that was all responsive, the way you think of it?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Absolutely. The teachers\u2019 unions have run our schools, the federal Department of Education have run our schools since 1979. They\u2019ve weaponized the federal government to push an agenda. And listen to the Republican position\u2014it has been: Get back to the basics. Get back to teaching a love of the country\u2019s values.<\/p>\n It\u2019s always with a critical eye. It\u2019s always a Hey, we want you to do a deep dive into everything<\/em>. Again, you notice everything\u2014if you look through our standards, we added more about what happened to the Native Americans. We added more about the Tulsa Race Massacre. Hey, we want kids to know the times we didn\u2019t live up to our values. That\u2019s very, very important. And frankly, as a history teacher, you learn from American greatness and those exceptional times throughout our history; you also have to look at the times we didn\u2019t live up to those things, and you have to look at that with an honest eye\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>And you mean that sincerely?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean, absolutely\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>That is not, to you, a kind of stain on American exceptionalism?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Well, what do you mean by that?<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>I just mean, this is the heart of the controversy, sort of how you teach about America\u2014<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>\u2014what America\u2019s founding was.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Sure.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>It\u2019s a very varied view. It\u2019s a very varied view.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Well, yeah, let me address that. So we live in the greatest country in the history of the world.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>That\u2019s also a specific view.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>It is. But, I mean, if you\u2019re\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Like, if you\u2019re teaching world history and you\u2019re teaching many countries\u2019 perspectives\u2014<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Yeah, but if you\u2014I mean, look, as [Benjamin] Franklin said, This is a republic, if we can keep it<\/em>. And part of the central goal of our education system is to keep the republic, keep an informed citizenry that understands American history, understands American exceptionalism, and understands that if we\u2019re not actively involved as citizens, if we don\u2019t understand our history, if we don\u2019t understand those values\u2014I mean, history, also, to your point, when you look at world history, we know what happens when countries don\u2019t abide by some central values, central principles: that it won\u2019t be good for the next generations. And that\u2019s part of what I believe is so important when you talk about education holistically but, specifically, history in education.<\/p>\n [Music<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n \u200aRosin: <\/strong>So do you even think of yourself as controversial? Do you understand why people describe you that way? Because you are controversial, but you seem to\u2014<\/p>\n Walters:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> \u2014think of yourself as neutral.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Look\u2014here\u2019s what\u2014I don\u2019t, you know\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Like, a person in your position doesn\u2019t often have enemies and backers and allies and detractors. I mean, are you\u2014<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Yeah, sure.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>But what I will say is, look, I\u2019m unapologetic. The teachers\u2019 unions have been one of the most negative forces in recent American history. I\u2019ve never seen anything like it\u2014the ideology they\u2019ve pushed on kids. It\u2019s unfathomable to me that they did that.<\/p>\n So, yeah, I went to war with a group that has an unlimited amount of money, nearly an unlimited amount of political power, that had bought off so many elected officials, that have bought off so many different interest groups. And we took on an education establishment of administrators, school-board associations, teachers\u2019 unions.<\/p>\n I mean, it doesn\u2019t surprise me. I think it\u2019s unfortunate that the left has become so radicalized, but it doesn\u2019t surprise me.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>There are a lot of parents who came to feel the same way Walters does about schools. The so-called parents\u2019 rights movement has exploded since the pandemic. Their origin story goes something like this: During the pandemic, when our kids were doing school from home, we discovered some of the stuff they were learning, and we were outraged<\/em>.<\/p>\n Now, conservatives were talking about taking over school boards back in the \u201990s, but the more recent parents rights\u2019 movement rocketed their momentum. And it wasn\u2019t just Christian conservatives in red states.<\/p>\n In a recent Supreme Court case, the court sided with Maryland parents who wanted to opt out of LGBTQ lesson plans that included books that were similar to the ones Walters complains about: books that mention gay or trans kids. And that was led by Muslim, Catholic, Orthodox Christian, and Jewish parents in a school system with a large immigrant population about 20 minutes from where I live in D.C.<\/p>\n So the parents who don\u2019t want what Walters calls the \u201cradical gender ideology\u201d pushed on their kids are everywhere\u2014and they\u2019re winning. The difference is: Walters is not just a parent. He runs an entire school system. And his vision is a radical rewriting of what public school in America is and has been for decades.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>I mean, there is an idea, totally apart from this warfare that you\u2019re describing, that public schools are an engine of American democracy precisely because they are a place where people who believe wildly different things\u2014people who are atheists and don\u2019t believe in God at all\u2014<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Sure, sure.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>\u2014and people who are evangelical Christians and go to church every day, and people who are Muslims, and people who are Jewish, and people who are gay, and all these different things\u2014are in school together. And that is the teaching ground. Do you not believe that? I mean, is that not an important value for you?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>It is. Everything\u2014is there anything I\u2019ve said today that would go counter to that? Because again\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Oh, yeah. Yes.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>\u2014what I would say is\u2014you think there is?<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>How?<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Absolutely. Absolutely. Because you define what sounds to me like a specific view as the only view, as the universal view: There\u2019s a universal view<\/em>. I mean, our Founding Fathers were influenced by lots of different ideas.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Sure.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Some of them were Christian; some of them were deist. It just seems as if you\u2019re defining a pretty specific idea as an idea for everybody\u2014like saying that we wanna welcome people with red-state values to our school, that seems specific. That seems exclusive.<\/p>\n Walters:<\/strong> And I\u2019ve defined those values for you. The values are: We\u2019re going to teach the basics. We\u2019re gonna teach academics. We\u2019re not going to have this left-wing agenda forced on our kids. It doesn\u2019t matter what your beliefs are. You walk into a school; you teach kids this\u2014we should all be able to agree on that.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>\u200aYou recently added\u2014this might be your most controversial thing\u2014that students should be taught about discrepancies in the 2020 election results. Why did you decide to add that?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>How do you teach about the 2020 election without that? I mean, notice how the standard was written. They\u2019re gonna look at graphs, data charts, everything else, show\u2014look, there were discrepancies. You had more people vote in that election than ever before, and then they went away. What\u2019s the reason for that?<\/p>\n Kids are gonna come to their own conclusion. We\u2019re gonna talk about COVID. We\u2019re gonna talk about mail-in ballots. They\u2019re gonna look at the data. They\u2019re gonna look at the statistics. They can draw their own conclusion on what happened with that election. But you\u2019re not gonna go teach 2020, one of the most controversial, the most controversial election in American history, and pretend like, Oh, there was no controversy. There was nothing about<\/em>\u2014we teach the 2000 election very similarly; we teach the 1824 election very similarly.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>However, you didn\u2019t say, \u201cIdentify if there were discrepancies.\u201d That seems to me like that would be open-ended questions. You said, \u201cIdentify discrepancies in election results.\u201d<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>That is not universally agreed upon by American courts. That\u2019s a specific political position.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>No, no, that\u2019s a fact. More people voted, and trends were dramatically different in that election. Now, there\u2019s a lot of explanations for that that people can give. We never had an election with dramatic changes in mail-in ballots. Okay, well, that\u2019s something to look into, right? Why were there so many mail-in ballots? COVID. Election strategies changed on that. Of course they did, right? Now you can get people to mail in their ballots, so the deep dive is into the discrepancies on the vote totals in that election. Kids are gonna come to their own conclusion. That\u2019s why we were very particular with that of: Give \u2019em the sources\u2014let them study that<\/em>.<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>So if a kid concludes there were no discrepancies, does that kid fail? Is that kid wrong?<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>(Laughs<\/em>.) If a kid\u2014okay, so kids are going to see the election totals, the vote totals. They\u2019re gonna look at the numbers. They\u2019re gonna look at the comparisons between others. That\u2019s what they\u2019re gonna be sure to study so that they understand it was a unique election. There is absolute\u2014that\u2019s undeniable. It was a unique election with the\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>It\u2019s denied by many, many courts.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>That it was a unique election? That we\u2019ve never\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Oh, that it was unique\u2014<\/p>\n Walters:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> \u2014but we could say, \u201cTalk about how the 2020 election was unique.\u201d That\u2019s different.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>Well, what does that mean?<\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>Oh, that can mean\u2014that\u2019s a very open-ended question.<\/p>\n Walters: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. Our standards are there so that parents are ensured: \u201cWhat do you mean? What are we learning about?\u201d They\u2019re gonna learn about the vote totals. They\u2019re gonna learn about bellwether states. They\u2019re gonna learn about the amount of people that voted. They\u2019re gonna learn about the amount of mail-in ballots. And they\u2019re gonna come to their own conclusions on that.<\/p>\n [Music<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin: <\/strong>By the way, just weeks into the start of the school year, the Oklahoma Supreme Court issued a temporary stay, pausing Walters\u2019s new standards as the court considers a lawsuit challenging them.<\/p>\n