\n<\/p>\n
Subscribe here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n During the post-Soviet 1990s, a popular political-satire show called Kukly<\/em> ran on the Russian independent network NTV. Then-President Boris Yeltsin, for example, was regularly depicted as a feeble drunk. For about a decade, the show featured puppets that lampooned prominent political and cultural figures\u2014until one episode, in which Vladimir Putin showed up as a grotesque, wicked dwarf. Soon after, Putin\u2019s administration pressured NTV executives to drop the character, and ultimately the show was permanently canceled.<\/p>\n For people who know about it, Kukly<\/em> represents a turning point in media freedom for Russia. For our two guests this week, Anne Applebaum, an Atlantic <\/em>staff writer, and Garry Kasparov, the host of Autocracy in America,<\/em> Kukly<\/em> was the first thing they thought of when they heard about the indefinite suspension of Jimmy Kimmel\u2019s late-night show.<\/p>\n The way the Trump administration pressured ABC to pull Kimmel\u2019s show is not exactly analogous to what happened in Russia. But to Applebaum and Kasparov, a world chess champion and one of Putin\u2019s most prominent critics, the details are ancillary. Applebaum and Kasparov see many of President Donald Trump\u2019s attempts to consolidate executive power as classic moves in an autocrat\u2019s playbook. And, as Kasparov says, silencing political satire is often one of the first.<\/p>\n In this episode of Radio Atlantic<\/em>, Applebaum and Kasparov discuss how Trump could mute the courts, which are now the most powerful resistance he faces. They debate the best way to fight back against authoritarian forces, for both Democrats and average citizens, and agree on the urgency of this moment: \u201c2026 is the battlefield,\u201d Kasparov says, \u201cthe most fateful election in American history.\u201d<\/p>\n The following is a transcript of the episode:<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n Hanna Rosin:<\/strong> I\u2019m Hanna Rosin. This is Radio Atlantic<\/em>. Today we have a special live show as part of The Atlantic Festival in New York. Welcome, everyone.<\/p>\n [Audience applause<\/em>] <\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> We have with us staff writer Anne Applebaum, who writes about the rise of autocracy, and Garry Kasparov, chess world champion who runs the Renew Democracy Initiative. They are both hosts of Season 1 and 2 of Autocracy in America<\/em>, which is an amazing show, but also a show which I\u2019m hoping there won\u2019t be, like, too many more seasons of. Like, what will we be talking about in Season 32 of Autocracy in America<\/em>? I shudder to think what the topics will be.<\/p>\n So, Anne, welcome to the show.<\/p>\n Anne Applebaum:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Garry, welcome to the show.<\/p>\n Garry Kasparov:<\/strong> Thank you. Just one correction. There will be no\u2014impossible. You cannot have too many shows, Autocracy in America<\/em>, for one simple reason: Either we stop it, or there\u2019ll be no shows, because they won.<\/p>\n [Audience laughter<\/em>] <\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Oh, I see. They\u2019re gonna cut your show off. So it\u2019s not gonna be like Live from the gulag: A secret episode of <\/em>Autocracy in America. Too soon. Okay, too soon for that joke.<\/p>\n The two of you have been talking about threats to democracy for a long time. You started talking about them outside the United States. Now we\u2019re, unfortunately, talking about them inside the United States. Every week we seem to see a ratcheting up, but this week felt like new territory. So, Anne, when you saw the news about ABC and Jimmy Kimmel, what is the first thing that came to your mind? What did you think of?<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> The first thing that came to my head, and I have no doubt it was the first thing that came to Garry\u2019s head as well, was the memory of Vladimir Putin pushing the satirical program Kukly<\/em>, which means \u201cpuppets,\u201d off the air in Russia. Dictators don\u2019t like satire. They don\u2019t like being made fun of. Putin in particular didn\u2019t like this puppet that was made to look like him. And he\u2014we even know how he did it. He sent a letter to the television station that had this satirical program and made them take it off.<\/p>\n I mean, this, in the United States, it went a little bit more circular. I mean, it was a threat from the FCC, you know, that was made on a podcast. And then it was interpreted by the corporate owners of a television station, and it led them to fire Jimmy Kimmel. But what\u2019s important, I think, about this in both cases is that this is the way modern censorship works.<\/p>\n So we all probably have an\u2014you probably have in your head an idea from, if you read [it], 1984 <\/em>or, you know, a novel about dictatorship. You imagine censorship is: There\u2019s a guy in a room, and he gets all the newspapers in advance, and he crosses out stuff with a pencil, and that\u2019s censorship. Actually, nowadays, if you look at Russia, if you look at Hungary, if you look at Turkey, censorship is the government putting pressure often on private companies to adjust their programming. And that is what we are now seeing here.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Garry, I don\u2019t know that for the rest of us, the first thing that came into our heads was Kukly<\/em>. So maybe you can explain what Kukly<\/em> is. Like, do you have a memory of it? I just wanna raise it in people\u2019s imagination. Like, what is it?<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> Yeah, thank you very much for reminding me about the gold era in Russia.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> It was a very short one. So the so-called tumultuous \u201990s, but we had\u2014it was feeble democracy\u2014but it was freedom of speech. Actually, Kukly<\/em> was on air for six years. And they have been, I mean, pushing, really, the limits. I mean, they attack Yeltsin; they mocked him. And Yeltsin, some of Yeltsin\u2019s close advisers\u2014actually, Yeltsin\u2019s attorney general, 1995, tried to shut down Kukly<\/em>, but he lost his job.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Interesting.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> And naturally, Putin hated it.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> And was it like what we are familiar with? Like Jon Stewart, Jimmy Kimmel?<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> They were puppets. But trust me\u2014in many instances, they went much further than Kimmel or Stewart. So it was really tough. I think maybe that Yeltsin liked it.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Like he found it funny.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> But again, the fact is that nobody tried to touch them after 1995. You know, the attorney general failed. So it was No. 1 target for Putin. He actually did two things after being quote-unquote \u201celected\u201d the president of Russian federation.<\/p>\n One is: He restored Soviet anthem, just to send a signal.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> With new words, with new lyrics.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> No, no. But think: This music, everybody heard it. It\u2019s still imperial.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> What\u2019s the music? Do you remember?<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> Yeah of course. You want us to sing? (Imitates Soviet anthem<\/em>.)<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> (Laughs<\/em>.) That wasn\u2019t that good.<\/p>\n [Audience laughter<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> And then he went after Kukly<\/em>, after the show. And as a matter of fact, he used similar tactics because it was not just a letter; it was all about business quarrel, because this company that had Kukly<\/em> owed money, and this sounds familiar, right? So it\u2019s all\u2014that\u2019s what immediately came to my mind, because I said, Wow, it\u2019s all business. Ah, that\u2019s how they always start<\/em>.<\/p>\n And Putin kept repeating it. Even, you know, just when Bush 43 asked him, he said, No, no, no. It was business. Yes. Well, look\u2014you know, there was a company. And this is, it was fair. They says they owe money to Gazprom.<\/em><\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> You\u2019ve used the phrase the \u201cPutinization of America.\u201d<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> Yep. I saw the signs. I saw the signs. I did say. Yeah, it\u2019s, people always say: No, America is not Russia<\/em>. Absolutely. But, you know, even back in 2016, I wrote that Americans would very soon discover that so many things that they believe are carved in stone, it\u2019s actually based on traditions. It\u2019s not codified. It\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> But so, I wanna talk about this because they are<\/em> different countries. Like, Putin\u2019s a KGB official; that\u2019s what he has in his history. Trump is a reality-TV star. We do have different histories and cultures. Our Constitution is different. It is built for tests. They\u2019re not exactly the same. So sometimes I go along with you two, and sometimes I think they\u2019re different.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> But it\u2019s, again, it\u2019s the Constitution. It\u2019s, I suppose, letter and spirit. I think so much in America is built on the spirit. Nobody ever did it before. For instance, you know, every candidate, you know, released his or her taxes. Trump said, Eh, no<\/em>.<\/p>\n And so many things happening now are within his powers. I said it just after his second coming, so that\u2019s the big danger. It would not be what he could do illegally but what he can do within his legal powers, because there\u2019s so many loopholes. There\u2019s the gray area. Yes, the Constitution is offering us the means to resist, but it doesn\u2019t specifically preclude him of doing things. And also, Donald Trump\u2014give him credit\u2014is a genius of normalizing things that we thought would never happen in this country.<\/p>\n I mean, what is Watergate? It happens every day now. In 50 years, you know, something that led to the resignation of the president, it\u2019s absolutely ignored. And every day, Trump is pushing a little bit, you know, this step-by-step in this direction. And the Constitution does not defend itself. In my next article, I\u2019m saying: It\u2019s just a piece of paper. It\u2019s not ironclad. It doesn\u2019t defend itself. It offers you an opportunity to build your fortifications, but unless you are engaged, well, it says he can go around.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> The other point to make is that: Of course America and Russia are different, but the pattern of how an elected leader takes over a political system, takes over a democratic system, and changes its nature is something that we\u2019ve seen before in countries that are also radically different.<\/p>\n So I lived through a version of this in Poland, then it lasted for eight years, and then there was an election, and it changed, and so on. We watched it in Turkey, we watched it in Hungary, we watched it in Russia. There\u2019s a version of it, actually, in India. You know, so Americans like to think that they\u2019re exceptional and special, and we have a long history and so on, but when we look at what Trump\u2014and I think it\u2019s more the people around him\u2014are doing, we see them following these exact patterns, and we\u2019re not seeing the institutions resist.<\/p>\n Mostly, we\u2019re not seeing Congress resist, because the way our Constitution is written, the checks and balances are the other two branches of government, and one of them has done a bit, the judiciary. That story hasn\u2019t played itself out yet. But what\u2019s really missing is Congress.<\/p>\n And that speaks to a level, a deeper problem, which is that there\u2019s clearly a\u2014I don\u2019t know what the right terminology is, whether it\u2019s decay or decline or deterioration. So the thing that Thomas Jefferson once talked about as democratic virtue or democratic spirit, we see is now missing in at least one or a part of one of our political parties. We don\u2019t see Republicans who are willing to say, This is against the Constitution. Congress has the right to determine tariffs and taxes, not the president. Congress has the right to decide what happens to government agencies and what they\u2019re meant to be doing and who\u2019s supposed to work for them. Congress decides what happens in the civil service<\/em>. And they have decided to let these things go and let the president do it.<\/p>\n So it\u2019s not that Americans are Russians, or America\u2019s like Russia, or American history resembles Russian history. It\u2019s just that the same kinds of tactics that we saw in places like Russia and elsewhere are playing out here, and we\u2019re not seeing the resistance that you would expect.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Can I try one more argument for American exceptionalism? Not the J. D. Vance version of American exceptionalism; more the Thomas Jefferson version. I recently reread the Declaration of Independence. I think you did something like this too.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> Yep.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> The difference is: America\u2019s founding did happen on a very specific date, at a very specific time, with a very specific idea. I encourage you all to go read the Declaration of Independence\u2014it\u2019s a boring thing to say, but just do it\u2014because you are reading about Trump. Like, everything they are saying about the king\u2019s power\u2014<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> I had exactly that reflection.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> \u2014down to tariffs, so that actually gave me a lot of hope, because I thought we knew that this was coming. Garry, you\u2019re already nodding your head. Why not?<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> I also read it a few times recently, but I came to the opposite conclusion. Yes, you are right. It\u2019s all about Trump. But the problem is: We are seeing the growing number of people\u2014mostly on one side\u2014that are willing to defend this practice.<\/p>\n They are no longer afraid of that. So if you want to understand how this administration work, just think about the hearings in the Senate. FBI director was insulting sitting senators. He doesn\u2019t care. These people appointed him. I mean, by Constitution, by all the laws, he has to revere them. No, he was insulting them.<\/p>\n It\u2019s a one-man show, for one man. And the same with all others. So it\u2019s, yeah, it\u2019s fantastic you have all these laws, but just for a moment, just, you know, look in the mirror and just think hard. If the moment comes\u2014Day X\u2014Kash Patel, Pam Bondi, and others, will they follow the Constitution or Donald Trump\u2019s orders?<\/p>\n And when you answer this question, you\u2019ll understand that everything is a piece of paper. There are many ways around.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Okay, one more, one more. The courts: In what you guys have seen, in wherever you wanna talk about (Poland, Russia, wherever) the courts actually have\u2014not perfectly, and not in every case\u2014shown up a lot.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> It depends on how, whether the courts themselves have been taken over. Because usually the first thing that happens\u2014and in this country, it\u2019s been happening, actually, over the last two decades\u2014but the first thing that happens is that the would-be autocrats, the people who wanna undermine the system, take over the courts.<\/p>\n This is exactly what happened in Poland. It\u2019s a complicated, long story, but the elected government changed the constitutional tribunal, which is their equivalent of the Supreme Court. And they managed to do it by changing the retirement-age law.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Like what Israel has tried to do.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> Exactly. And actually, I think the Israelis were copying the Poles. Israelis said that to me. So they changed a whole series of small rules without passing a constitutional law, in order to change the nature of the court. And the purpose of that was so that when they began to do things that were unconstitutional, they would get away with it. And they didn\u2019t quite get far enough, and they thought they had enough controls over the system so that they would never lose an election again, but they were wrong.<\/p>\n However, it has to be said, as a little footnote: Unpicking that\u2014so getting the courts back to where they were before, and figuring out what to do with hundreds of illegally appointed judges, and so on that took place during that period\u2014is a nightmare.<\/p>\n I mean, so putting back the cracked egg after it\u2019s been smashed is also very difficult.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> But judges can make a decision. They cannot enforce it. That\u2019s why you have three branches And the first one, Article I, is Congress. So, yeah, this is, you remember\u2014I think it\u2019s in 1833, \u201934\u2014it\u2019s this President Jackson. You know, he had to deal with the Supreme Court ruling against some of the colonies that were trying to steal lands in Georgia. And he said, Okay, fine. You know, I cannot stop them<\/em>. You know, I won\u2019t go to send troops. Let them enforce it.<\/em><\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> Apparently that\u2019s apocryphal.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> Apocryphal?<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> He didn\u2019t really say that, but that\u2019s more or less what happened.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> More or less what happened.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> He said specifically\u2014Jackson said, Let the judge enforce it<\/em>.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> Let the judge<\/em>, yes.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> But, Garry, have you seen any signs of that in the courts? You\u2019re taking away all hope that I have.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> No, but again, it\u2019s the courts\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Go ahead. I\u2019m just asking.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> Courts, you know, most of them are just doing their job. But again, it\u2019s the\u2014I mean, let\u2019s talk about, for instance, the National Guard in the big cities, the blue cities. So now it\u2019s all pending. And the court decision was, yeah, it\u2019s probably saying it probably was not exactly legal.<\/p>\n But now let\u2019s say Donald Trump sends the troops\u2014you wouldn\u2019t call it contempt of the court, but ignoring it\u2014just to Chicago or Memphis, any big blue city. It doesn\u2019t matter what the court decided. The key is: The test, the general that will have to make a decision, will be forced to choose between Donald Trump\u2019s order and Constitution.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> But let\u2019s just be clear: He actually hasn\u2019t. Sending the troops to Memphis isn\u2019t illegal.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> Not yet. Not yet. Again, it happens fast. But, you know, he\u2019s in the office for just eight or nine, less than nine months. And they\u2019re moving really fast. They move really fast.<\/p>\n And again, the problem is that, you know, it\u2019s because of his hold on MAGA base. Through the MAGA base he controls GOP, and through GOP he controls the House. House is silent, and with House basically absent, he can do virtually anything he wants.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> There is one court case that he hasn\u2019t enforced. This is actually the TikTok case, but this is an ongoing story. But I think it\u2019s true that for the moment, they\u2019ve been skirting around trying to defy the Supreme Court openly. But I agree with Garry that we could get there.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> We could<\/em> get there.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> We could get there.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> Again, the big test is next year, the midterm. Let you remember: Donald Trump doesn\u2019t lose elections. He said it. Donald Trump doesn\u2019t accept bad numbers. They don\u2019t exist. He lives in the world of his own reality.<\/p>\n On January 6, 2021, he tried to overturn the elections. He had to rely on the mob and few elected officials. Now he will do the same. And, for me, it\u2019s not \u201cif\u201d; it\u2019s \u201cwhen.\u201d<\/p>\n But he will have FBI, DOJ, ICE, same mob, and more elected officials on his side.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> To do what exactly? Like, what are you saying?<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> Oh, there are many ways of influencing elections. If you think that the numbers will secure the victory for Democrats, that you can rely heavily on health care or tariffs, that\u2019s not enough. Oh, FBI\u2014FBI will be a player. Unless, you know, unless Democrats can actually change the situation on the floor of the House, FBI and DOJ will be a player.<\/p>\n How many law firms acquiesced? How many big companies acquiesced? So at one point, you\u2019ll discover that, you know, there\u2019s probably not enough money available just to run the campaign, because they will be attacked. They\u2019ll find how to do it.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> So to be clear, the way you\u2014again, it\u2019s like modern censorship is different from the old-fashioned way, and manipulating elections is also different from what it was. And so, you know, you don\u2019t just take the big pile of votes and steal them and move them in another room.<\/p>\n What you do is, you try to create the conditions for the election to be in your favor. So you get rid of a level playing field, and you make it unlevel so that it works in your favor.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Like gerrymandering or what?<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> So gerrymandering is actually a big part of the story. I mean, you saw what just happened in Texas. The Trump administration is pushing other Republican states to do the same. This is why it\u2019s very important that Newsom responded the way he did. Ugly as it is that he wants to gerrymander California, it\u2019s very important that he drew attention to this as a phenomenon.<\/p>\n I mean, gerrymandering goes\u2014this is a long conversation. Gerrymandering goes back a long time. A lot of people have done it. This is the first time I\u2019m aware of that the federal government, that the president, has got involved in telling a state to gerrymander so as to assist his White House.<\/p>\n And the decision of the Texas governor to do it now is out of turn. These borders aren\u2019t normally rewritten at this point in the cycle. It\u2019s usually every 10 years, to do with when the census is taken. And so this is already one thing that\u2019s unprecedented.<\/p>\n The second thing that\u2019s unprecedented is: The federal government has been demanding voter rolls from states, allegedly looking for fraud, or allegedly they\u2019re trying to create some kind of national voter registry. It\u2019s not clear what.<\/p>\n And we had versions of this, actually, in the 2024 election. There was some evidence of this, some kind of games beginning be to played too. So they\u2019re beginning to look at how they can legally push people off the voter rolls.<\/p>\n I mean, it\u2019s hard to steal midterms, because the rules are different in every state and so on, but what they\u2019re trying to do is set conditions that will make it much harder for the Democrats to win.<\/p>\n And that doesn\u2019t mean\u2014by the way, again, to go back to another example: You know, in Poland in 2023, this is exactly what happened. They tried to create conditions whereby the ruling party\u2014it was called the Law and Justice Party\u2014were sure that they would win because they\u2019d created the rules that would make them win.<\/p>\n And actually, there was a huge turnout. The voters voted in very, very high numbers, and they lost anyway, which they were very surprised by. And when they lost\u2014it was funny\u2014they didn\u2019t have a Plan B. Like, they were so sure they were gonna win that they didn\u2019t plan to steal the numbers or fake the numbers. And then when they lost, they didn\u2019t know what to do. And there was a period when they were kind of disoriented.<\/p>\n But what you\u2019re gonna see over the next year is all kinds of small things. And it will be different in different states. And what they will do is try to shape a situation whereby they win.<\/p>\n And we could get down. I mean, we saw in 2020: We know that the president called up the secretary of state of Georgia and said\u2014what was it?\u2014I\u2019m missing [11,000] votes. Could you just get me [11,000] votes?<\/em> I mean, we could have that again in a state, and we could have it in a state where the secretary of state agrees.<\/p>\n [Music<\/em>] <\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> We\u2019re gonna take a short break, and we\u2019ll be back in a minute with more from Anne Applebaum and Garry Kasparov.<\/p>\n [Break<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Okay. I\u2019m gonna ask you a question that I don\u2019t wanna ask you, and then I\u2019m gonna close my eyes as you answer: 2026?<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> Most fateful election in American history.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Most what<\/em>?<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> Most fateful election in American history. If Democrats do not retake the House, 2028 will be a formality. That\u2019s it. You know, then I\u2019m afraid the show, Autocracy in America<\/em>, the show will be shut down.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> Hanna and I will run it in the underground.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Yes. We\u2019ll run it in the underground.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> In this room.<\/p>\n [Audience laughter<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> What? Okay, 2028 then?<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> 2028 is too far.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> 2026. This is the battlefield. You have to make sure that the Congress, that Article I of the Constitution, will take a stand against Donald Trump.<\/p>\n And by the way, I believe the Democrats should actually start work on it now. There are five Republicans\u2014there are five members of the House that separate, you know, Donald Trump from pushing his agenda. Three of the GOP members, they are retiring. So make them an offer they cannot reject. All you need, you need five votes. And it\u2019s, again: Be active. Try. Offer them speakership.<\/p>\n You know, people are people. Create campaigns. You know, just create conditions where a lot of them will feel uncomfortable, and maybe some of them will be lured by the great opportunities. But try. Fight. No one is fighting now; that\u2019s the problem.<\/p>\n And by the way, never accept any deals with Republicans. Shutdown, it\u2019s bad. But remember: This government is not working for us; it\u2019s against us. No deals. Donald Trump doesn\u2019t believe that Democrats exist. He said it, not me. Ah, don\u2019t deal with them.<\/em> He is already de facto running a one-party system. Don\u2019t make deals with him. Just fight at every opportunity you have.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> There\u2019s another thing that we\u2019re seeing here that I\u2019ve also seen in another countries, is that when\u2014<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> I feel like that should have been an applause. I don\u2019t know why I feel like, you know, \u201cfight.\u201d<\/p>\n [Audience applause<\/em>] <\/strong><\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> (Laughs<\/em>.) Sorry, go ahead. Sorry, Anne.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> I was gonna say, another thing that we\u2019re seeing here that we also see in other countries is: When you have a political party come to power that seeks to change the rules\u2014and another country I didn\u2019t mention, actually, is Venezuela, where this very much was true, that seeks to change the rules. It doesn\u2019t have to be a right wing; it can also be left wing. So they seek to change the rules. One of the things that happens is that the political opposition immediately fragments, and they immediately don\u2019t know what to do. And this is like, you can look at every\u2014you can look at Hungary, you can look at Poland, you can look at Venezuela.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> So is that what\u2019s happening now with the Democrats?<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s what\u2019s happening, because the old rules and the old ways by which people made political careers and by which they did messaging and did campaigning aren\u2019t working anymore. And nobody really knows why. And the new rules aren\u2019t clear yet.<\/p>\n And actually, I think that what we\u2019re seeing Democrats doing\u2014I have a little bit more patience with them than Garry does\u2014is you see a lot of different people trying different things.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Like Mamdani.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> Like Mamdani, for example. He\u2019s trying, you know, to reach young people in a new way.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> Who else, just so that we can start looking around?<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> Chris Murphy, who\u2019s a senator from Connecticut who\u2019s made it his business to be constantly on social media and to be talking all the time and to, you know, go around the country, and speaking.<\/p>\n [Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez] got a whole bunch of people with Bernie Sanders, held rallies in different cities, including in red states around the country.<\/p>\n Gavin Newsom, he\u2019s doing something completely different. You know, he decided to use Twitter, which is the most important forum for the sort of far right, for the MAGA conversation. And he decided to flip it back on them and make fun of them, and use satire and humor to attract attention and to breakthrough in the algorithms. And it\u2019s completely different from what Mamdani is doing. But it\u2019s another way of seeking to gain attention and build a constituency.<\/p>\n Governor [J. B.] Pritzker in Illinois is another one. And he\u2019s very different from Gavin Newsom. He\u2019s doing these very heartfelt, very authentic speeches about Chicago, about Illinois, about the history of his family, relating them to the present. And he\u2019s breaking through in that way.<\/p>\n One of those styles will win. I mean, one of them will become the thing that\u2019s most popular, eventually.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> So why is Garry not with us here?<\/p>\n [Audience laughter<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> Because there are many more red states than blue states. Something that works in New York does not work\u2014actually, it\u2019s counterproductive\u2014with many other states.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> So, but, Garry, this is why you need multiple people. You know, the idea that we need one leader right now\u2014<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> My problem is not, you know, having the big tent. Actually, I\u2019m saying it\u2019s very important for us to understand: We are fighting just for the very\u2014for the soul of American democracy. And this is: We have to protect the framework. And within the framework, I\u2019m more than happy to debate with people that disagree with me, but this framework is in grave danger now. That\u2019s what Donald Trump is trying to destroy.<\/p>\n But to beat Donald Trump, we have to make sure that within this big tent, the leadership of the coalition will be accepted by people in the middle. Because at the end of the day, you still need just to build a coalition to win it. And it\u2019s, our coalition is not strong enough. We need people that are just, you know, in the middle. And unfortunately, in 2024, many of them shifted to the other side. And one of the reasons, you know, the culture war, for instance, they said it.<\/p>\n So we have to make sure we\u2019ll build a coalition that will concentrate on the key elements of the campaign. And these key elements are just, you know, have to be associated with people that have no, call it, political liabilities. I\u2019m very happy to work with this grand coalition, but again, as the faces, as the people on the front\u2014the front liners should be those who will be accepted by the majority.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> But they also have to be people who will motivate their base. And they also have to be people who are creative and who are not simply saying, Let\u2019s go back and have everything be the way it was<\/em>. You know, there have to be people who have a different kind of inspiring vision.<\/p>\n Kasparov:<\/strong> There are so many tools available for American citizens to put pressure on members of the House, on senators, on administration, on local governors.<\/p>\n You can go to demonstrate on the streets. You know, it\u2019s not Russia, God forbid. It\u2019s the many ways for Americans to demonstrate that they disagree with the current policies. But to do that: Temperament. You know, you have to be engaged, and you have to understand that it\u2019s the real battle, and stop thinking about 2028. As Anne said, it\u2019s 2026. Every month, every week between now and 2026 elections, make sure that, you know, we will be ready if, God forbid, they\u2019ll try to do things. Anne didn\u2019t mention this: You know, it\u2019s the social networks.<\/p>\n In one of my episodes in the podcast, I talked to Gary Marcus, the expert on AI and neuroscience. We talked about techno-fascism. There\u2019s so many subtle ways of influencing elections. Again, make sure we are ready for this battle. And I like our chances. It\u2019s much better than Russia. Probably it\u2019s as good as in Poland, or even better.<\/p>\n But Poles knew they had to fight. So please recognize: It\u2019s a fight. And it\u2019s not 2028; it\u2019s now.<\/p>\n Applebaum:<\/strong> Yeah. The thing I like to say is that people often ask me, What should I do? Or what can ordinary people do?<\/em> And the thing\u2014the answer to that question is: It depends who you are.<\/p>\n If you\u2019re a lawyer, then work pro bono on some of the cases that will determine which way the system goes. You know, if you are a teacher, make sure that you are teaching children about the nature of our political system. You know, you can demonstrate, you can join a political party, you can join an organization, you can contribute to organizations. And very often, by being engaged\u2014in other words, by doing something\u2014then it will become clear to you what to do next. It\u2019s by being involved that you understand how to become more useful.<\/p>\n The other thing\u2014and I found this very much in Poland, as well (for those of you who don\u2019t know, I live there part of the time)\u2014is that also by doing something, by being engaged, you feel better. I mean, so you don\u2019t feel like you\u2019re helpless and, you know, history is washing over you, and you can\u2019t do anything. If you\u2019re involved, then you\u2019re doing something, and it will be\u2014that\u2019s the way to fight pessimism.<\/p>\n