\n<\/p>\n
Subscribe here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n Yesterday, Jimmy Kimmel\u2019s late-night show was suspended indefinitely. It\u2019s a shocking moment for free speech, given the order in which events unfolded. Earlier that day, FCC Chair Brendan Carr had suggested on a conservative podcast that ABC and its affiliates consider taking steps against Kimmel, saying, \u201cWe can do this the easy way or the hard way.\u201d<\/p>\n As it so happened, the late-night legend David Letterman was scheduled to speak at The Atlantic Festival the next day. Letterman and The Atlantic<\/em>\u2019s editor in chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, sat down for an impromptu interview about the news. Here\u2019s their conversation.<\/p>\n The following is a transcript of the episode:<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n Hanna Rosin:<\/strong> The FCC has historically acted as a kind of enforcer of community standards. They\u2019ve doled out fines for saying the F-word, for example, or \u201cwardrobe malfunctions.\u201d<\/p>\n Factual mistakes, errors in judgment, bad jokes\u2014that has not traditionally been part of their job, until this week. As you may have already heard, comedian Jimmy Kimmel\u2019s late-night show was suspended by ABC for comments he made on the show about the assassination of conservative activist Charlie Kirk.<\/p>\n Here\u2019s the timing of events, which is important: Kimmel says something inaccurate about the guy who killed Charlie Kirk. Shortly after, the chairman of the FCC, Brendan Carr, gets on a right-wing podcast and suggests that ABC and its affiliates take steps against Kimmel, saying, quote, \u201cWe can do this the easy way or the hard way.\u201d<\/p>\n The network, which relies on stations carrying their programming, wasted little time. That same day, they pulled Kimmel\u2019s show off the air indefinitely. Here\u2019s what Trump said when a reporter asked him about it on Air Force One.<\/p>\n President Donald Trump:<\/strong> I read someplace that the networks were 97 percent against me. I got 97 percent negative, and yet I won it easily. I won all seven swing states, the popular vote. I won everything.<\/p>\n And if they\u2019re 97 percent against, they give me only bad publicity or press. I mean, they\u2019re getting a license. I would think maybe their license should be taken away. It would be up to Brendan Carr.<\/p>\n Rosin:<\/strong> I\u2019m Hanna Rosin. This is Radio Atlantic<\/em>. On Thursday, Atlantic<\/em> Editor in Chief Jeffrey Goldberg sat down with exactly the person you want to hear from about what it means that the government is weighing in on whether comedians who do political comedy can make a slightly wrong, mediocre joke.<\/p>\n Retired Late Show<\/em> host David Letterman may have very well invented or at least perfected the genre of pushing the political envelope for late-night television. They spoke at The Atlantic Festival on the heels of a conversation with playwright Ayad Akhtar about art and AI.<\/p>\n Here are Goldberg and Letterman.<\/p>\n [Audience applause<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Jeffrey Goldberg:<\/strong> Just so you understand, as you know, David Letterman was coming to do an interview here, but given the events of the last 18 hours or so, we asked him if he would come out a little bit early and talk to me about the events of the last night. So David Letterman is gonna come out, and Ayad is gonna switch places with him. Thank you, Ayad.<\/p>\n Ladies and gentlemen, David Letterman.<\/p>\n David Letterman:<\/strong> How are you doing? Nice to meet you. Thank you very much. Thank you.<\/p>\n [Audience applause<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Wait a minute. I was hoping there\u2019d be a second wave. You\u2019re all right.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> (Laughs.<\/em>)<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Nice to see you.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for doing this.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> I was gonna talk about the playwright in the age of AI. What the hell?<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah, I know, I know. We totally flipped the script on you. I\u2019m sorry. I\u2019m just gonna stay out here for a few minutes and talk to you about it, and then you\u2019re gonna interview your guest. But look, we saw what happened last night. It follows what happened to [Stephen] Colbert. You are the godfather of the genre.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Yes, I am.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Yeah. You\u2019re the godfather of the genre.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> The great-grandfather.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Tell us\u2014I wasn\u2019t going there. Tell us what you think about what happened last night to Jimmy Kimmel.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Well, this is a misery. And in the world of somebody who is an authoritarian\u2014maybe a dictatorship\u2014sooner or later, everyone is going to be touched.<\/p>\n But this is me for 30 years. I did this for a living. So I see this happen\u2014they took care of Colbert. That was rude. That was inexcusable. The man deserves a great deal of credit. He\u2019s in the hall of fame nine times. And to be manipulated like that because the Ellison family didn\u2019t want to trouble Donald Trump with this move, so they got rid of him\u2014not only got rid of him, got rid of the whole franchise. You\u2019re not gonna have to worry about anything, Larry. It\u2019s all gone. It\u2019s fine. Goodnight<\/em>.<\/p>\n And then my good friend Jimmy Kimmel, you know, I just feel bad about this because we all see where this is going, correct? It\u2019s managed media.<\/p>\n And it\u2019s no good. It\u2019s silly. It\u2019s ridiculous. You can\u2019t go around firing somebody because you are fearful or trying to suck up to an authoritarian, criminal administration in the Oval Office. That\u2019s just not how this works.<\/p>\n [Audience applause<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> 10 years ago, I was smart enough to cancel myself. But the other thing is: The FCC, this guy\u2014<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Brendan Carr.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> \u2014Brendan Carr, yes. So this guy at the FCC says: We can do things the easy way. We can do things the hard way.<\/em> Who is hiring these goons? Mario Puzo?<\/p>\n The FCC: We\u2019re not happy until you are not happy<\/em>, for God\u2019s sakes. When I was a kid, I was, like, 20 years old and I wanted to work at a radio station, so I went to Chicago, to the FCC. You take a test, you pass the test, you have your Third Phone radio-broadcasting license.<\/p>\n That\u2019s what the FCC does. If you\u2019re a 50,000-watt clear-channel radio station, once a year they\u2019ll come and check your dials to make sure you\u2019re not broadcasting at 55,000 watts. And God forbid you are, then you get an $8 fine. That is the FCC. I don\u2019t know what is going on here.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Let me ask you this. You worked through five or six presidential administrations.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Oh my god. And yes, a whole list. It started with Jimmy Carter.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Your first show in the Carter era?<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s right. And then all the way right up through Barack Obama. And was there one after that that I worked for? When did I leave?<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Possibly, I don\u2019t know personally. When did you\u201410 years ago, you said?<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Hang on, I got a list. Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George Bush senior, Bill Clinton, George Bush II, Barack Obama. Yeah. All right.<\/p>\n And attacked these men mercilessly. Never once\u2014well, Jimmy Carter not so much. What can you say about Jimmy Carter? He was just a sweet guy. But everybody else we really went to work on. And I can remember, Bill Clinton we really went to work on, and then it got so it was like, Whoa, this is a gift. What are we gonna do? Bill Clinton, he\u2019s out of office after eight years of Bill Clinton<\/em>. And then George Bush came along, and it was easy motoring after that.<\/p>\n But the point is: Beating up on these people, rightly or wrongly, accurately or perhaps inaccurately, in the name of comedy, not once were we squeezed by anyone from any governmental agency, let alone the dreaded FCC.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Republican, Democrat. Never a\u2014<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Well, I will say we probably went easy on Barack Obama because I kinda like the guy.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> But never a call from the White House?<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Nothing.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Never an intimation?<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> No. Because everybody sort of understood\u2014in the name of humor, in the name of commenting on what\u2019s going on in the world, cultural events\u2014why not?<\/p>\n And by the way, the institution of the president of the United States ought to be bigger than a guy doing a talk show. You know, it just\u2014it really ought to be bigger.<\/p>\n [Audience applause<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Well, it was really interesting: Last night, late at night, Trump is tweeting or Truth Socialing from Windsor Castle after a state dinner hosted by the king of England, doing his late-night television show critique. It feels like we\u2019re living in a simulation when you think about that.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Well, it would be hilarious if it wasn\u2019t all leading to something from which we won\u2019t recover.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> What do you think it\u2019s leading to?<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Well, first of all, here\u2019s the thing that\u2019s up my nose these days. By God, we gotta get to work on those midterms.<\/em> Well, I think the midterm elections will be elections in name only. I\u2019m sorry. The Republicans have raised untold billions of dollars. The Democrats, I think, are staggering a bit behind in terms of fundraising.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Let me ask you about the actual joke or commentary that Jimmy Kimmel made the other night. It actually was inaccurate.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> So what?<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> I mean, recognizing that he\u2019s a comedian, not a journalist.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Yes, exactly right. We all make mistakes. I mean, good Lord. And by the way, the condition of the United States of America has not been perfect from the time I was born to this very day, and before that. We know that. The goal is not perfection.<\/p>\n Mistakes are gonna be made. Hopefully it will improve. I think, sadly, it\u2019s not going to improve. I\u2019m not exactly, in full mind, understanding of what Jimmy said, what he was trying to say, and what mistake was made. This is something that was predicted by our president right after Stephen Colbert got walked off. So you\u2019re telling me that this isn\u2019t premeditated at some level?<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Well, I mean, he also announced that Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyers were next.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> (Laughs.<\/em>) Jesus.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> And Jimmy Fallon\u2014this is my own view\u2014is not quite as sharp-tongued as\u2014<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> And why is that, Jeff? Why do you think that is? Has something to do with IQ, is that what you\u2019re saying?<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> (Laughs.<\/em>) He has a different personality. He is just a different kind of comedian.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> By the way, isn\u2019t this guy great on Friday nights?<\/p>\n [Audience applause<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Look at that. Thank you very much.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Me and my grandparents really love him.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> (Laughs.<\/em>) I told him he\u2019s way too young to watch Washington Week with The Atlantic<\/em>. But\u2014<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> You know, when this thing happened last night. And by the way, I have heard from Jimmy\u2014he was nice enough to text me this morning\u2014and he\u2019s sitting up in bed, taking nourishment. He\u2019s gonna be fine.<\/p>\n [Audience laughter<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> But I said to my wife, I said, \u201cI don\u2019t know what to think or say about this situation. I wish in the world,\u201d and this is what\u2019s great about New York, \u201cI wish in the world I could talk to Jeff Goldberg.\u201d Here I am talking to Jeff Goldberg. I mean, honest to God, isn\u2019t it amazing how these things work?<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> It\u2019s all serendipity here. But keep going on this theme of this dissent, because one of the things I think a lot of us are wondering about\u2014I\u2019m surprised at the number of hard-core moves that this administration has made in many, many different directions at once, including dismantling the CDC, as just one example. Dismantling USAID. In every direction.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> You don\u2019t like the labor numbers, you fire the person reading the labor numbers.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> So the question is, it does seem\u2014and I just want your analysis of this\u2014it does seem that there\u2019s a kind of passivity in the country about these things. People are saying, Well, Jimmy Kimmel did\u2014<\/em>I mean, I have to ask you that question\u2014but Jimmy Kimmel did get it wrong<\/em>. So, in the company\u2014we heard Mike Pence earlier say, Well, look, it\u2019s a private company. Jimmy Kimmel doesn\u2019t have a First Amendment right to work for that company<\/em>. He didn\u2019t exactly deal with the question of the pressure put on by the FCC.<\/p>\n But what is your diagnosis? What is the red line for the American people, who I\u2019ve believed like having a First Amendment, historically and today.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Oh, really? You think so? Yes. I think it\u2019s served us.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> I mean, I\u2019ve always operated under the assumption that people think it\u2019s pretty good that you can get to say what you want in America.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Yes. Yes.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> So what is going on here?<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Well, I would ask you, what are the determining landmarks here? Authoritarianism. How is that different from a dictatorship? Does authoritarianism breed dictators? Is dictator a special category? Where are we on that progress? Because I think we\u2019re inexorably headed in that direction. So I need you to tell me something encouraging that I can take home that will settle down my wife.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> You\u2019re not\u2014this is not rhetorical. You\u2019re a\u2014<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> I\u2019m asking you.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Oh, you\u2019re\u2014ah, shit.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> (Laughs<\/em>.) He said \u201cshit\u201d! Oh my God. The Atlantic Monthly<\/em> guy said \u201cshit\u201d! Yes! There\u2019s your First Amendment, ladies and gentlemen.<\/p>\n [Audience applause<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. (Laughs.<\/em>) No, as I said to Ayad, we don\u2019t have to worry about the FCC.<\/p>\n Look, we don\u2019t worry, I mean\u2014and I have to say this in all seriousness to a group of people who subscribe to The Atlantic<\/em> and read The Atlantic<\/em>. Look, you know, there\u2019s only two ways to approach. I\u2019m not trying to sound, like, self-righteous or whatever. I\u2019m not. There\u2019s only two ways to approach this moment: Either you stay true to your mission and just say what you think is true\u2014what you know to be true\u2014or you don\u2019t.<\/p>\n I\u2019m personally very surprised at the large numbers of companies that don\u2019t have to fold. It\u2019s just about money. I mean, nobody, yet, is threatening to send them to the gulag. But the pursuit of money has distorted the reactions of the people who know better, including the people who employ Jimmy Kimmel and Stephen Colbert\u2014and, by the way, a newspaper that\u2019s based in Washington that we can talk about at another time.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> What happened to that rag?<\/p>\n [Audience laughter<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> You know, there are only two kinds of owners. I mean, we happen to have a good one. But there\u2019s two kinds of owners, and they\u2019re the owners who don\u2019t realize that their one responsibility is to protect the journalists, to allow them to say exactly\u2014the whole country is built on this premise. We don\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> But this is exactly what I\u2019m alluding to. There was these two standards of journalism in the United States, the Post<\/em> and the Times<\/em>. And one could think: Okay, these will stabilize. These are people who represent the truth, and if they get it wrong, they apologize and will make changes<\/em>. And now one is gone.<\/p>\n I have family members who live in the Washington, D.C., area. And you\u2019re lucky if you get the crossword and weather, you know, out of The Washington Post<\/em>.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> To answer your question briefly, there is no answer. What is the bright line between soft authoritarianism, preemptive authoritarianism?<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> By the way, the analogy of the boiling frog is actually incorrect. Frogs do try to hop out of water, it turns out.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Well, finally, we\u2019ve learned something here today.<\/p>\n [Audience laughter<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> But every day brings this almost cognitive assault.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> How do people\u2014you think: Okay, I\u2019m still okay. I can still have breakfast. I still have a big-screen TV. So things are okay<\/em>. At what point do people who should be affected by this as early on, when\u2014and again, things were not good for a huge part of this country, and they\u2019re not gonna get better for that same group. So at what point do the doors open in the mind of average Americans and they\u2019re petrified?<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> The problem is: As long as there are an abundance of cheap calories, reasonably priced gasoline, and endless video diversion, it\u2019s very hard to imagine this country right now sort of saying, Wait a second\u2014having a functioning CDC, FDA, USAID, National Weather Service<\/em>, etcetera.<\/p>\n This is the main question that I ask, and I think a lot of our journalists of The Atlantic<\/em> ask, is, like: When is this gonna penetrate?<\/em> When is the idea that\u2014like, we\u2019ve always believed that vaccination was a settled issue in America, since the time of George Washington, as I mentioned earlier.<\/p>\n It turns out that it\u2019s not settled. That doesn\u2019t seem to upset people enough.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> I know. This is the great mystery. Why aren\u2019t people upset by this or a half-dozen other things that are upsetting?<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> But you what? Maybe it\u2019s like\u2014and I\u2019m not comparing any one country to another country\u2014but maybe it\u2019s like Tahrir Square in Cairo in 2011: Nobody thought that it was gonna happen until it happened. And I don\u2019t know what the thing is.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> This is the Arab Spring.<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> The Arab Spring, yes. I don\u2019t know what the thing is. You would think that it\u2019s when the government fires the people who track Ebola, which is not a partisan issue. You would think that many people would say: You know what? It\u2019s probably better to know where the Ebola is<\/em>.<\/p>\n And that hasn\u2019t happened. So we\u2019re all waiting to see what the reaction is, but we also understand that people in the Trump administration\u2014<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Okay, so let\u2019s just say there is an awareness\u2014<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> By the way, I know that we have to, like, bring out your actual guest.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> I\u2019m calling the shots here, pal.<\/p>\n [Audience laughter<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> But let\u2019s just say there is an actual awareness beyond what you and I believe and can imagine. Let\u2019s say everybody is aware. What do we do?<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Well, look, we still have a free media. I mean, we get to say\u2014<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Do we?<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, large swaths of it, yeah. The world\u2019s biggest newspaper, The<\/em> New York Times<\/em>, is independent of what\u2019s happening in Washington.<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> How many times has the president sued them?<\/p>\n Goldberg:<\/strong> I understand that they\u2019re under pressure, but again, it comes back to\u2014<\/p>\n Letterman:<\/strong> Well, look at what happened to The<\/em> Washington Post<\/em> with their owners.<\/p>\n